Sgc 11 / psa !!

[Fred]

In the past I would support SGC over PSA because I thought they did a better job and I liked the aesthetics of the holders more. Now I just look at both with the same amount of contempt.

SGC and PSA are equals in ineptitude in subjectivity. They’re both equally clued into the fact that the “collectors” will spend lots of ca$h for cards with a higher number on the flip. They’ve also figured out that people will pay more to have a card graded/assigned a higher number. In my mind, that just means that the grading companies are incentivized to assign higher numbers if the consumer is willing to pay the price for it.

There doesn't seem to be any accountability for doing a poor job of grading. TPGs can do what ever they want, collect the fees and not worry about any repercussions. What’s sad is that the collecting public seems to be addicted to this crap and will continue to eat it up.

I purchased a few cards recently and I’m fairly certain the cards were altered yet they received numerical grades.

I looked at the SGC web site and see they have two levels (PRI and GM) of 10’s. SGC should just come up with a new gimmick, the SGC 11. Then PSA can counter with their PSA !! grade and have everyone trampling over each other to get the 11 or !!

What would be nice if the auction houses started refusing consignments if they suspect something is wrong with an assigned grade or it’s obvious the card in a holder is not what the flip indicates. We know that won’t happen.

The TPGs should stick to authenticating the cards and not assign numerical grades. If a card is authentic but altered, then have that indicated on the flip. That won’t happen because that doesn’t allow collectors to say look at that number on the flip.

You gotta protect yourselves. Like the saying goes – buy the card not the flip.

Sorry for the semi-rant. If you’re going to say “well just get out of the hobby”, save your virtual breath – I do this because it’s something I’ve been doing well before the TPGs screwed things up. I still get enjoyment from it, but not quite as much as in the days when it was more of a hobby than a means for deceitful minded people to screw others to make a buck.

[raulus]

Prolly why Beckett has their black label. Basically an 11.

[doug.goodman]

I very much prefer to call them "opinion sellers"...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Prolly why Beckett has their black label. Basically an 11.

The Joe Clemons black label thread on Blowout should be mandatory reading.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Joe Clemons black label thread on Blowout should be mandatory reading.

A classic in corruption. Which everyone ignores, of course.

[paul]

When SCD was in the grading business, I think they had an 11 on their scale. I'm not sure if they ever handed one out. This is all too reminiscent of Spinal Tap.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by G1911

A classic in corruption. Which everyone ignores, of course.

Agree with both !

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Joe Clemons black label thread on Blowout should be mandatory reading.

Agree. Eye opening.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Joe Clemons black label thread on Blowout should be mandatory reading.

Agree. Eye opening. With link...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297069

[Johnny630]

Fred my favorite part of your statement below !! This is the reality of situation.

TPGs can do what ever they want, collect the fees and not worry about any repercussions. What’s sad is that the collecting public seems to be addicted to this crap and will continue to eat it up

[ClementeFanOh]

Fred- for what it’s worth, I’m objective enough to admit I’ve caught myself being the “old guy yelling at clouds” on more than one occasion. You are right that the cow has left the barn in this case, it’s not going back to the way it was in the past. For the record, I’m an SGC supporter and even I question not “corruption”, but the clearly unfair way they are evaluating vintage cards across most sports. They seem consistent about it, though- in my experience…one overarching issue with the “TPG problem” is that so many people who voice displeasure, clearly profit from slabbed cards. Seems a bit hypocritical to rail about, say, PSA while insisting only on buying and selling PSA cards, for example. One such person is a responder in this thread Trent King

[jchcollins]

There is nothing much about the state of professional grading today which couldn't have been predicted starting in about the late 1990's. You think card grading is ridiculous now, look into coin grading. 10 different flavors of mint? Small wonder, David Hall who founded PSA - made his previous fortune starting a coin grading company. The concept coming to the card hobby was a long time in coming, and given the state of the landscape in the early 90's with fraud and alteration - many collectors and dealers welcomed it. Of course with business models that made sense and smart marketing ideas (PSA's set registry...) money enters the equation and eventually the successful grading companies come full circle. Instead of preventing fraud and alteration, now in some proven cases all of the big 3 have been complicit in it. The ability to leave your standards the same and subjectively change how you apply them over the decades might be deceptive, but it's also a huge help to their business model.

To a few of the OP's points:

*No, there is no accountability for bad / incompetent grading. Relatively few collectors on the whole seem to care about it. Certainly not enough to affect widespread change, as slabgate and Gary Moser and other shenanigans of the pandemic timeframe proved. I'm on forums like this one and others on social media all the time where people complain all day long about grading - yet continue to submit their cards and money to PSA.

*If you feel like cards you purchased are altered, why did you send them in for grading? If you submit you ostensibly want their opinion, not yours. This is another unfortunate result of TPG dominance over the years - old collectors in some cases no longer trust their own opinions on condition and grading, and those new to the hobby don't even bother to learn.

*Yes, there will always be nuances and changes to the grading scale in an attempt to move the needle. Whether that is two different standards for a 10, a real "11" one day, or what have you. Sad as it may seem, people buy into this. In 1985 there were like 5 recognized grades: Mint, EX, VG, G, F/P. That simplicity changed even before 1990, and then with the advent of TPG's, legit "ranges" such as VG-EX or EX-MT became pegged to numbers. That's never how it was supposed to work, but the graders took over and their influence prevailed.

*Auction houses are not going to start refusing PSA grades. They specifically deal in 3rd party graded cards so they DON'T have to assume that responsibility themselves.

*PSA and others are not going to suddenly stop assigning number grades in favor of authenticity designations only. This ship sailed a long time ago. Collectors want it, and it is a huge profit factor in the TPG business model. Don't like your PSA 9? Well keep submitting it (for a fee each time) and maybe you will pull that 10! If you want a card in a slab that is "Authentic" only, there are options to do this with each of the big 3 grading companies.

At the end of the day, grading is subjective and always will be. Standards exist, but the grading companies have done a brilliant job of continuing to make them tighter to where you will always be able to look at a slab and say "Well, I'm not sure..." That's their whole intention. Remember that also at the end of the day, a slab and a flip and a grade is just one opinion from one entity. It's not a final, end-all-be-all pronouncement of the worth of your card - unless you accept that and make it that.

Funny what happens when money finds a way to seep into a seemingly established aspect of a hobby. Everything changes. But it was fairly predictable.

[67airborne]

Originally Posted by Fred

In the past I would support SGC over PSA because I thought they did a better job and I liked the aesthetics of the holders more. Now I just look at both with the same amount of contempt.

SGC and PSA are equals in ineptitude in subjectivity. They’re both equally clued into the fact that the “collectors” will spend lots of ca$h for cards with a higher number on the flip. They’ve also figured out that people will pay more to have a card graded/assigned a higher number. In my mind, that just means that the grading companies are incentivized to assign higher numbers if the consumer is willing to pay the price for it.

There doesn't seem to be any accountability for doing a poor job of grading. TPGs can do what ever they want, collect the fees and not worry about any repercussions. What’s sad is that the collecting public seems to be addicted to this crap and will continue to eat it up.

I purchased a few cards recently and I’m fairly certain the cards were altered yet they received numerical grades.

I looked at the SGC web site and see they have two levels (PRI and GM) of 10’s. SGC should just come up with a new gimmick, the SGC 11. Then PSA can counter with their PSA !! grade and have everyone trampling over each other to get the 11 or !!

What would be nice if the auction houses started refusing consignments if they suspect something is wrong with an assigned grade or it’s obvious the card in a holder is not what the flip indicates. We know that won’t happen.

The TPGs should stick to authenticating the cards and not assign numerical grades. If a card is authentic but altered, then have that indicated on the flip. That won’t happen because that doesn’t allow collectors to say look at that number on the flip.

You gotta protect yourselves. Like the saying goes – buy the card not the flip.

Sorry for the semi-rant. If you’re going to say “well just get out of the hobby”, save your virtual breath – I do this because it’s something I’ve been doing well before the TPGs screwed things up. I still get enjoyment from it, but not quite as much as in the days when it was more of a hobby than a means for deceitful minded people to screw others to make a buck.

Fred
I think I’ve found the solution you were looking for. I seen an auction on eBay we’re the seller has another company grade the slab. https://www.ebay.com/itm/394515413605
Sometimes you just gotta laugh. Jeff

[Bill77]

Originally Posted by Fred

In the past I would support SGC over PSA because I thought they did a better job and I liked the aesthetics of the holders more. Now I just look at both with the same amount of contempt.

SGC and PSA are equals in ineptitude in subjectivity. They’re both equally clued into the fact that the “collectors” will spend lots of ca$h for cards with a higher number on the flip. They’ve also figured out that people will pay more to have a card graded/assigned a higher number. In my mind, that just means that the grading companies are incentivized to assign higher numbers if the consumer is willing to pay the price for it.

There doesn't seem to be any accountability for doing a poor job of grading. TPGs can do what ever they want, collect the fees and not worry about any repercussions. What’s sad is that the collecting public seems to be addicted to this crap and will continue to eat it up.

I purchased a few cards recently and I’m fairly certain the cards were altered yet they received numerical grades.

I looked at the SGC web site and see they have two levels (PRI and GM) of 10’s. SGC should just come up with a new gimmick, the SGC 11. Then PSA can counter with their PSA !! grade and have everyone trampling over each other to get the 11 or !!

What would be nice if the auction houses started refusing consignments if they suspect something is wrong with an assigned grade or it’s obvious the card in a holder is not what the flip indicates. We know that won’t happen.

The TPGs should stick to authenticating the cards and not assign numerical grades. If a card is authentic but altered, then have that indicated on the flip. That won’t happen because that doesn’t allow collectors to say look at that number on the flip.

You gotta protect yourselves. Like the saying goes – buy the card not the flip.

Sorry for the semi-rant. If you’re going to say “well just get out of the hobby”, save your virtual breath – I do this because it’s something I’ve been doing well before the TPGs screwed things up. I still get enjoyment from it, but not quite as much as in the days when it was more of a hobby than a means for deceitful minded people to screw others to make a buck.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not but SGC has always had an 11 grade. Back when they had the 100pt grade range a 98 was a 10 and 100 was Pristine. 100 was not a 10 grade it was better than a 10.