Sgc 11 / psa !!

[jchcollins]

There is nothing much about the state of professional grading today which couldn't have been predicted starting in about the late 1990's. You think card grading is ridiculous now, look into coin grading. 10 different flavors of mint? Small wonder, David Hall who founded PSA - made his previous fortune starting a coin grading company. The concept coming to the card hobby was a long time in coming, and given the state of the landscape in the early 90's with fraud and alteration - many collectors and dealers welcomed it. Of course with business models that made sense and smart marketing ideas (PSA's set registry...) money enters the equation and eventually the successful grading companies come full circle. Instead of preventing fraud and alteration, now in some proven cases all of the big 3 have been complicit in it. The ability to leave your standards the same and subjectively change how you apply them over the decades might be deceptive, but it's also a huge help to their business model.

To a few of the OP's points:

*No, there is no accountability for bad / incompetent grading. Relatively few collectors on the whole seem to care about it. Certainly not enough to affect widespread change, as slabgate and Gary Moser and other shenanigans of the pandemic timeframe proved. I'm on forums like this one and others on social media all the time where people complain all day long about grading - yet continue to submit their cards and money to PSA.

*If you feel like cards you purchased are altered, why did you send them in for grading? If you submit you ostensibly want their opinion, not yours. This is another unfortunate result of TPG dominance over the years - old collectors in some cases no longer trust their own opinions on condition and grading, and those new to the hobby don't even bother to learn.

*Yes, there will always be nuances and changes to the grading scale in an attempt to move the needle. Whether that is two different standards for a 10, a real "11" one day, or what have you. Sad as it may seem, people buy into this. In 1985 there were like 5 recognized grades: Mint, EX, VG, G, F/P. That simplicity changed even before 1990, and then with the advent of TPG's, legit "ranges" such as VG-EX or EX-MT became pegged to numbers. That's never how it was supposed to work, but the graders took over and their influence prevailed.

*Auction houses are not going to start refusing PSA grades. They specifically deal in 3rd party graded cards so they DON'T have to assume that responsibility themselves.

*PSA and others are not going to suddenly stop assigning number grades in favor of authenticity designations only. This ship sailed a long time ago. Collectors want it, and it is a huge profit factor in the TPG business model. Don't like your PSA 9? Well keep submitting it (for a fee each time) and maybe you will pull that 10! If you want a card in a slab that is "Authentic" only, there are options to do this with each of the big 3 grading companies.

At the end of the day, grading is subjective and always will be. Standards exist, but the grading companies have done a brilliant job of continuing to make them tighter to where you will always be able to look at a slab and say "Well, I'm not sure..." That's their whole intention. Remember that also at the end of the day, a slab and a flip and a grade is just one opinion from one entity. It's not a final, end-all-be-all pronouncement of the worth of your card - unless you accept that and make it that.

Funny what happens when money finds a way to seep into a seemingly established aspect of a hobby. Everything changes. But it was fairly predictable.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

*If you feel like cards you purchased are altered, why did you send them in for grading? If you submit you ostensibly want their opinion, not yours. This is another unfortunate result of TPG dominance over the years - old collectors in some cases no longer trust their own opinions on condition and grading, and those new to the hobby don't even bother to learn.

For clarification - the cards I purchased were GRADED already, but through the slab I can tell they're altered.

If I felt a card was altered, I wouldn't bother submitting it for grading. I haven't submitted cards for grading in a long time now because it's a total zoo and the more I read about it, the more I stay away from submissions.

My grading standards are very strict, I don't need a TPG to tell me what grade a card is. I'm going to guess that most old time collectors probably feel the same. We don't need a TPG telling us what to think. Unfortunately, many cards worth collecting are being graded so we have no choice but to purchase slabbed cards if we're trying to reach a collecting goal and want to add something to our collections.

I also purchase raw cards but I usually ask for good scans of the cards if I can't see the card in person.

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I very much prefer to call them "opinion sellers"...

Doug - you are so right - these TPGs are "opinion sellers". Perhaps another way to think of them is as "influencers". It's laughable, large segments of the collecting public follow these TPG "influencers" like people (without a thought of their own) follow social media influencers. It seems kind of mindless, especially now that things are getting to that point of total absurdity with the slabbing of altered cards that, with a little more evaluation, probably should have been slabbed with an ALTERED label and not a numerical number (especially undersized high grade crap).

Oh yeah, as the saying goes, every thread should have a nice picture of a vintage card...

PSA8 Wagner T206.jpg

[parkplace33]

Collectors used to be "Buy the card, not the slab".

Most are now "Buy the slab"

[ClementeFanOh]

Park place- I think you mean “sellers”, not “collectors”. Trent King

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Park place- I think you mean “sellers”, not “collectors”. Trent King

I used to, but now unfortunately, that line is blurred.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Fred

...but through the slab I can tell they're altered.


My grading standards are very strict, I don't need a TPG to tell me what grade a card is.

+1

The biggest pain, for me, is when the slab is obscuring the alteration (which of course is not the intent or purpose of the slab). Even today cards are not cut the same size; a card measuring properly does not mean it wasn't trimmed. The slab prevents proper examination of edges and the surface as well.

I, buy a ton of graded cards because that's what available mostly for cards over $100. All of them get cracked out, and sometimes I get a nasty surprise when doing so. Several times I've discovered a clearly trimmed card. Other times I discover they didn't look at the surface, and that the slab hides the damage until crack out.

For example, this T226 Jack O'Brien was an SGC 45/3.5 (how does a 3.5 on a 10 scale equate to a 45 on a 100 scale?). I thought it was a 3 when buying it, those corners are too weak and damaged for the + grade, but 3.5 is reasonable and within the norm. It looks fine, until you examine the surface. As shown in the angled pic, you can see the tiny wrinkles on the left side when angled under light. There's the corner creases in the upper right. In total, there are at least 14 creases and wrinkles on the card. In addition, there are multiple dimples and scratches you can see, that you can't see head on or through the obscuring of the slab. It's not a real problem for me, because I just want a copy of the card for my set and this one looks fine, but if I was taking the grade seriously, there's no way this is anything over a 2 at best, though it's a nice presenting 2 at best.

Generally, the graders do usually manage to correctly authenticate whether a card is real or not, and usually they don't miss major and obvious natural damage, but they very often miss not immediately obvious damage, which is usually given as the entire non-investment benefit of grading - that someone is taking a careful look and examining, and grading not on the eye scale but on a technical scale of damage so that the buyer doesn't get surprises like this.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

For clarification - the cards I purchased were GRADED already, but through the slab I can tell they're altered.

If I felt a card was altered, I wouldn't bother submitting it for grading. I haven't submitted cards for grading in a long time now because it's a total zoo and the more I read about it, the more I stay away from submissions.

My grading standards are very strict, I don't need a TPG to tell me what grade a card is. I'm going to guess that most old time collectors probably feel the same. We don't need a TPG telling us what to think. Unfortunately, many cards worth collecting are being graded so we have no choice but to purchase slabbed cards if we're trying to reach a collecting goal and want to add something to our collections.

I also purchase raw cards but I usually ask for good scans of the cards if I can't see the card in person.



Doug - you are so right - these TPGs are "opinion sellers". Perhaps another way to think of them is as "influencers". It's laughable, large segments of the collecting public follow these TPG "influencers" like people (without a thought of their own) follow social media influencers. It seems kind of mindless, especially now that things are getting to that point of total absurdity with the slabbing of altered cards that, with a little more evaluation, probably should have been slabbed with an ALTERED label and not a numerical number (especially undersized high grade crap).

Oh yeah, as the saying goes, every thread should have a nice picture of a vintage card...

Attachment 562910

Also a great post Fred, and love the choice of cards. LOL Nothing like a completely unbiased and independent opinion on a graded card, right? And to maybe clarify and exemplify my point about independence and bias in grading, we can look right to the company grading that card you posted. Wasn't there a particular individual that was behind/helped found a particular grading company? And didn't that individual at one time have what was regarded as one of the finest, if not the finest, graded T206 collection in the world? So, who graded all his cards?

I rest my case!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

There is nothing much about the state of professional grading today which couldn't have been predicted starting in about the late 1990's. You think card grading is ridiculous now, look into coin grading. 10 different flavors of mint? Small wonder, David Hall who founded PSA - made his previous fortune starting a coin grading company. The concept coming to the card hobby was a long time in coming, and given the state of the landscape in the early 90's with fraud and alteration - many collectors and dealers welcomed it. Of course with business models that made sense and smart marketing ideas (PSA's set registry...) money enters the equation and eventually the successful grading companies come full circle. Instead of preventing fraud and alteration, now in some proven cases all of the big 3 have been complicit in it. The ability to leave your standards the same and subjectively change how you apply them over the decades might be deceptive, but it's also a huge help to their business model.

To a few of the OP's points:

*No, there is no accountability for bad / incompetent grading. Relatively few collectors on the whole seem to care about it. Certainly not enough to affect widespread change, as slabgate and Gary Moser and other shenanigans of the pandemic timeframe proved. I'm on forums like this one and others on social media all the time where people complain all day long about grading - yet continue to submit their cards and money to PSA.

*If you feel like cards you purchased are altered, why did you send them in for grading? If you submit you ostensibly want their opinion, not yours. This is another unfortunate result of TPG dominance over the years - old collectors in some cases no longer trust their own opinions on condition and grading, and those new to the hobby don't even bother to learn.

*Yes, there will always be nuances and changes to the grading scale in an attempt to move the needle. Whether that is two different standards for a 10, a real "11" one day, or what have you. Sad as it may seem, people buy into this. In 1985 there were like 5 recognized grades: Mint, EX, VG, G, F/P. That simplicity changed even before 1990, and then with the advent of TPG's, legit "ranges" such as VG-EX or EX-MT became pegged to numbers. That's never how it was supposed to work, but the graders took over and their influence prevailed.

*Auction houses are not going to start refusing PSA grades. They specifically deal in 3rd party graded cards so they DON'T have to assume that responsibility themselves.

*PSA and others are not going to suddenly stop assigning number grades in favor of authenticity designations only. This ship sailed a long time ago. Collectors want it, and it is a huge profit factor in the TPG business model. Don't like your PSA 9? Well keep submitting it (for a fee each time) and maybe you will pull that 10! If you want a card in a slab that is "Authentic" only, there are options to do this with each of the big 3 grading companies.

At the end of the day, grading is subjective and always will be. Standards exist, but the grading companies have done a brilliant job of continuing to make them tighter to where you will always be able to look at a slab and say "Well, I'm not sure..." That's their whole intention. Remember that also at the end of the day, a slab and a flip and a grade is just one opinion from one entity. It's not a final, end-all-be-all pronouncement of the worth of your card - unless you accept that and make it that.

Funny what happens when money finds a way to seep into a seemingly established aspect of a hobby. Everything changes. But it was fairly predictable.

Very well said!

Will add one thing in regard to your last asterisked comment about why TPGs won't just offer authentic grades and continue to give numeric ones, their contingent pricing fee schedules. With numeric grades they can also declare and charge more for grading a card based on the perceived value difference of the exact same card in say a "7" versus an "8" or "9" grade. If they simply just grade everything as authentic, how can they get away charging more for one card over another similar card then? And this contingent grading fee also should make ALL their grading opinions worthless as any of the TPGs that follow such a fee grading schedule are clearly not completely independent nor totally unbiased when it comes to giving their opinions on grading cards. And that last statement isn't a question or an opinion, it is an absolute truth!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BobC

Very well said!

Will add one thing in regard to your last asterisked comment about why TPGs won't just offer authentic grades and continue to give numeric ones, their contingent pricing fee schedules. With numeric grades they can also declare and charge more for grading a card based on the perceived value difference of the exact same card in say a "7" versus an "8" or "9" grade. If they simply just grade everything as authentic, how can they get away charging more for one card over another similar card then? And this contingent grading fee also should make ALL their grading opinions worthless as any of the TPGs that follow such a fee grading schedule are clearly not completely independent nor totally unbiased when it comes to giving their opinions on grading cards. And that last statement isn't a question or an opinion, it is an absolute truth!

Thanks Bob, very true. There is a contingent of collectors out there who cannot for the life of them understand why it costs more to grade a '52 Mantle than it does a '23 Series 1 Aaron Judge. If nothing else this is where the business model just takes over - because they can, and many of those same collectors will pay through the nose for it. Nothing is truly unbiased - correct.

[Snowman]

In my observation, the TPGs have clearly gotten more strict on grading, not less. And by a large measure with PSA. A 6 from the earlier days of grading is a 4 today at PSA. SGC is slightly more consistent, but they've moved the goalposts as well. BGS is just laughably incompetent though.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

There is nothing much about the state of professional grading today which couldn't have been predicted starting in about the late 1990's. You think card grading is ridiculous now, look into coin grading. 10 different flavors of mint?

That's one thing I can't really see fault in.

The nature of coins and the traditional grading system was like that long before modern third party grading.

To a coin collector "mint" is a coin just as it came from the mint. Because most were simply put into cloth sacks and shipped to banks most recieved no wear from circulating, but did get lots of knicks from rattling around with other coins.
So you can have a coin that hasn't circulated, but was on the bottom of a bag at the bottom of the pile and looks like it did a couple rounds with a bear. OR you can have one that was on top of the top bag, and is nearly perfect.

Both are "mint" but one is far nicer than the other.

If you get to San Francisco, take the tour of the old mint. Hopefully they still show one of the old metal lined vaults that has dents which are coin impressions from the 1800's at least 5 feet up the wall!

[Rhotchkiss]

Fred, I agree with your general sentiment. The grade is an opinion, the verification of authenticity is not. Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one, including me, and I can make up my own mind about “grade”/quality. But I should be able to rely on a TPG’s determination regarding authenticity/alteration. For this reason, it really bothers me when TPGs mess this up, especially when they grade obvious reprints!

[perezfan]

Agree with the OP and basically all others who've chimed in here...

The advent of TPG grading (and the corruption/capriciousness associated with it) is what drove me from collecting cards with some memorabilia sprinkled in to collecting memorabilia with a few cards sprinkled in.

I know that's a run-on sentence and will leave it to the others to eloquently describe their experiences. But suffice to say that the God-like importance people put upon the TPGs drove me away from cards and over to memorabilia. When thousands of altered cards began showing up in numbered slabs (with no negative consequences for the TPGs), it just cemented the decision for me.

Probably fortunate timing on my part, seeing what happened to card prices shortly after the grading scandal. I still love vintage cards... but only those that don't come with a barcode and meaningless number attached.

[Johnny630]

For as much as well all have our criticisms of TPG’s I have accepted and acknowledged that if it wasn’t for the grading companies my collection wouldn’t be worth nearly as much as it is now without them. The bottom line is they have helped make me and others make lots of money over the years in cards. Sure I’ve lost some too but on the majority, it’s been an overwhelming gain broadly speaking.

[Fred]

Wow, how the heck did the Mack 1915 CJ reprint get encapsulated with an actual grade. Exception, not the rule - hopefully that's the case but there's just TOO much crap that gets by.

What's an acceptable screw up rate? .25% .5% 1% ????

When a trimmed card is slabbed with a high grade then it may be one of the low percentage screw ups, but it could be a $10K+ screw up. That's the kind of stuff these TPGs are supposed to not allow, but we see it time and again. I think the biggest alteration the TPGs miss is TRIMMING. Then there's bleaching, adding color or general repair to a card. Just my opinion - if a card doesn't meet a standard size requirement and the corners are RAZOR sharp, then it doesn't get a numerical grade - just call it AUTHENTIC. Sure, there are going to be cases the card is a true factory gem, but in most cases an undersized card with RAZOR sharp corners is TRIMMED. How many JUMBO cards do you see with RAZOR sharp corners? Crickets for the most part.

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For as much as well all have our criticisms of TPG’s I have accepted and acknowledged that if it wasn’t for the grading companies my collection wouldn’t be worth nearly as much as it is now without them. The bottom line is they have helped make me and others make lots of money over the years in cards. Sure I’ve lost some too but on the majority, it’s been an overwhelming gain broadly speaking.

Johnny, I want to preface this by saying that the following is not a knock nor a criticism so please don't take it that way. Collectors collect for different reasons.

I have NO clue what all my stuff is worth because I don't care. I collect this stuff because I like it. I don't spend money on cards that I can't afford to "lose". If card prices were to drop 90%, I couldn't care less. It just means there will be more card board for me to collect, but realistically that's not going to happen.

I'm sure that many people that have been collecting for years could probably cash out and retire but what fun is that? Sometimes I catch myself thinking I should do just that, but as mentioned before, this cardboard collection has no monetary value to me, it's just cardboard (some surrounded by plastic).


It would have been nice if an industry standard was set up for grading before the TPGs started mass encapsulation. Perhaps that would have required a crystal ball to foresee all the crap people would try to pull to screw people over. Least we forget PSA's first graded card.

Grading standards could have helped the hobby enrich itself. Instead the TPGs (that just don't care) have made themselves wealthy at the expense of a bunch of dorks that like to collect pictures of dead guys on cardboard.