OMG PSA slabs blatantly altered Tiger Woods rookie, then it passes ebay program

[Peter_Spaeth]

So much for the ebay authenticity program being meaningful, if it doesn't even look at or for obvious altered cards. This card has no perforations it is as obvious a hack job as has ever existed. Look at the top edge lol. BUT the holder isn't tampered, hallelujah.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=612

[G1911]

PSA is a joke, but it doesn’t really matter. Most will continue to use them no matter how many thousands of problems there are because it’s not really about being competent or correct, it’s about making money by any means.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

PSA is a joke, but it doesn’t really matter. Most will continue to use them no matter how many thousands of problems there are because it’s not really about being competent or correct, it’s about making money by any means.

The authenticity guarantee program isn't much better, if its scope doesn't even include flagging something this blatant. This is not a close call or a matter of interpretation, it's a complete eff up.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The authenticity guarantee program isn't much better, if its scope doesn't even include flagging something this blatant. This is not a close call or a matter of interpretation, it's a complete eff up.

The authenticity program works at its purpose: making money. It is not for PSA to actually admit they’ve wrongly graded thousands and thousands of items. That’s why they’re “authenticating” the slab, so they don’t have to actually do anything and can just get a cut on the card again.

[mrreality68]

Wow. Does not work.
I am shocked
Wow.In for the money
I am shocked

Reality nothing with them shocks me

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Wow. Does not work.
I am shocked
Wow.In for the money
I am shocked

Reality nothing with them shocks me

With so many new graders I am sure this just got by one who didn't know the issue which is a bit unusual in that it's got perforations from being separated from a sheet. Still. And an "authenticity guarantee" that covers nothing more than the holder itself is IMO fairly meaningless.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by G1911

The authenticity program works at its purpose: making money. It is not for PSA to actually admit they’ve wrongly graded thousands and thousands of items. That’s why they’re “authenticating” the slab, so they don’t have to actually do anything and can just get a cut on the card again.

It’s my understanding that this is correct. They are looking to make sure that the slab is authentic and unaltered, and not really looking at the card at all. Mark my words, slabbed slabs are coming!

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With so many new graders I am sure this just got by one who didn't know the issue which is a bit unusual in that it's got perforations from being separated from a sheet. Still. And an "authenticity guarantee" that covers nothing more than the holder itself is IMO fairly meaningless.

+1 agree do not roll out the guarantee until you have the resources to guarantee it.

[swarmee]

Take it up with PSA. If you report it using their APR tool once the sale posts, PSA will sometimes recall the item and decertify it. They would also have to shell out on their Grade Guarantee.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So much for the ebay authenticity program being meaningful, if it doesn't even look at or for obvious altered cards. This card has no perforations it is as obvious a hack job as has ever existed. Look at the top edge lol. BUT the holder isn't tampered, hallelujah.

This is a little like complaining that the guy you hired to paint your house didn't also reupholster your couch. Ebay isn't judging the authenticity of the card, just that the holder itself isn't tampered with.

Of course, you already know this but for some reason you're complaining about Ebay here - who is performing a service for free - instead of PSA, who are the ones who actually screwed up AND charged for it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is a little like complaining that the guy you hired to paint your house didn't also reupholster your couch. Ebay isn't judging the authenticity of the card, just that the holder itself isn't tampered with.

Of course, you already know this but for some reason you're complaining about Ebay here - who is performing a service for free - instead of PSA, who are the ones who actually screwed up AND charged for it.

eBay isn’t judging anything. PSA inspects the PSA slab to authenticate the slab while ignoring the card itself. What a useful ‘service’ being provided.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is a little like complaining that the guy you hired to paint your house didn't also reupholster your couch. Ebay isn't judging the authenticity of the card, just that the holder itself isn't tampered with.

Of course, you already know this but for some reason you're complaining about Ebay here - who is performing a service for free - instead of PSA, who are the ones who actually screwed up AND charged for it.

If ypu collect PSA graded cards you need to blame it on eBay, bad eBay.

I have never understood the hate for a FREE eBay program that helps people.

[ullmandds]

this is all PSA imo...not ebay.

[JustinD]

In agreement that this one falls on PSA for 80% as I think that eBay is likely to always fall on the side of the grader so they don't create a back and forth with grading companies. I also think if they are too scared to question the grading for legal reasons, packaging should be very clearly labeled on all documentation that the card is not observed and we have only certified that the slab is untampered, that to me is the other 20%.

The other even more annoying problem to me is the sellers language:

"1996 S.I For Kids Tiger Woods Series 3 #536 Mint 9 and has already been Authenticated by PSA and Ebay which is Ebay's new policy. They work with PSA and several other graders on guaranteed certification before your card is shipped"

Everything this clown said is bulls**t. Ebay/CSG did not authenticate the card and that stupid package means jack. They also do not work with the other grading companies in any way to certify a graded card. I doubt they would even walk over to the other room to talk to a CSG grader if a CSG slab comes in. My fear was people would start using this program as an actual grading program and it should not be.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is what someone sees unless they read the fine print. Deceptive IMO.

Authenticity Guarantee
This item is verified by an authenticator before delivery

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Take it up with PSA. If you report it using their APR tool once the sale posts, PSA will sometimes recall the item and decertify it. They would also have to shell out on their Grade Guarantee.

Fixing a problem? Being part of the solution? What's the fun in that.

[G1911]

It’s always interesting to compare:

The number of posters who have an issue with the incompetence of PSA that is being reported

Versus

The number of posters who have an issue that the incompetence of PSA is being publicly reported

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

In agreement that this one falls on PSA for 80% as I think that eBay is likely to always fall on the side of the grader so they don't create a back and forth with grading companies. I also think if they are too scared to question the grading for legal reasons, packaging should be very clearly labeled on all documentation that the card is not observed and we have only certified that the slab is untampered, that to me is the other 20%.

The other even more annoying problem to me is the sellers language:

"1996 S.I For Kids Tiger Woods Series 3 #536 Mint 9 and has already been Authenticated by PSA and Ebay which is Ebay's new policy. They work with PSA and several other graders on guaranteed certification before your card is shipped"

Everything this clown said is bulls**t. Ebay/CSG did not authenticate the card and that stupid package means jack. They also do not work with the other grading companies in any way to certify a graded card. I doubt they would even walk over to the other room to talk to a CSG grader if a CSG slab comes in. My fear was people would start using this program as an actual grading program and it should not be.

After I wrote him he changed it to this. Not much better.
Ebay co-ordinates with PSA and several other graders on authenication before your card is shipped.

More importantly, he claims it came off the sheet like this. RIGHT.

[Yoda]

I wonder how many tampered with slabs has Ebay outed? Not many, I suspect.
This whole program is confusing and markedly slows delivery of our cards.

[JimmyC]

I've used PSA to slab a few tickets - and that's for protection - nothing else.....couldn't give a hoot about the grade they assigned to my tickets....

I've never - and will never send a card in for grading.....I am mostly a raw guy, but will buy some PSA slabbed cards IF - I LIKE THE CARD.....I've seen so many EX 5s that look no better than VG....Seen 8s that look like EX cards....and on and on...

I once bought a game used Ernie Banks bat back around 2005....The bat was absolutely killer.....When I received the bat from the auction company, there was a letter from PSA authenticating the signature on the bat......Problem was, there was no signature on the bat.....the bat was never signed.....

The Authentication program is worthless IMHO....As Yoda says, it just slows down the delivery.....

Buy the card.....don't buy the grade.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I wonder how many tampered with slabs has Ebay outed? Not many, I suspect.
This whole program is confusing and markedly slows delivery of our cards.

Yes, there is a whole new rhythm now to the timing of buying ebay cards. And honestly based on one amazing experience I had and have discussed before, I'm skeptical PSA could even spot a well done fake slab, at least the lower level people they doubtless have assigned to reviewing the hundreds of ebay cards coming in daily.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

eBay isn’t judging anything. PSA inspects the PSA slab to authenticate the slab while ignoring the card itself. What a useful ‘service’ being provided.

Ok, so it's PSA don't the inspection. Distinction without a difference. OP is still complaining about the wrong thing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Ok, so it's PSA don't the inspection. Distinction without a difference. OP is still complaining about the wrong thing.

The complaint against PSA here goes without saying, I was making an additional point. But fine, yes obviously PSA effed this up badly in the first place.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Ok, so it's PSA don't the inspection. Distinction without a difference. OP is still complaining about the wrong thing.

As the OP was factually correct and you were factually wrong, it seems your complaint was the one “about the wrong thing”. You might not agree with the complaint, but it’s at least valid and not “about the wrong thing”.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's another casualty of the program. Someone I know had several cards he shipped to the authenticator disappear after reaching the Santa Ana post office. He was told a very large bin of cards intended for PSA or whatever pseudonym they use for their address as authenticator was stolen. So that means lots of buyers didn't get their cards at all.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

As the OP was factually correct and you were factually wrong, it seems your complaint was the one “about the wrong thing”. You might not agree with the complaint, but it’s at least valid and not “about the wrong thing”.

Sigh.

[Snapolit1]

Breaking news. . . nothing is perfect and people make mistakes. Film at 11.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Breaking news. . . nothing is perfect and people make mistakes. Film at 11.

Do you have any example of the good this has done? Has PSA found a single fake PSA slab to remove?

Doesn’t seem like a “nothing is perfect” so much as “this does nothing but delay and possibly lose your item while adding no benefit”.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's another casualty of the program. Someone I know had several cards he shipped to the authenticator disappear after reaching the Santa Ana post office. He was told a very large bin of cards intended for PSA or whatever pseudonym they use for their address as authenticator was stolen. So that means lots of buyers didn't get their cards at all.

Who ended up taking the hit on the money?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Breaking news. . . nothing is perfect and people make mistakes. Film at 11.

You should think the worst in people to get along here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Breaking news. . . nothing is perfect and people make mistakes. Film at 11.

Says a man who has never posted a complaint, surely.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Who ended up taking the hit on the money?

In my friend's case, he had an insurance policy against shipping losses. Otherwise I don't know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Do you have any example of the good this has done? Has PSA found a single fake PSA slab to remove?

Doesn’t seem like a “nothing is perfect” so much as “this does nothing but delay and possibly lose your item while adding no benefit”.

I think on Blowout a poster stated he had heard of one such fake slab found, or claimed anyhow by PSA. Or perhaps it was here.

But hey, I am glad my Kawhi Leonard $500 rookie was just blessed, I am sure there was a real high chance that card slabbed a month ago by the seller could have been a fake slab.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think on Blowout a poster stated he had heard of one such fake slab found, or claimed anyhow by PSA. Or perhaps it was here.

But hey, I am glad my Kawhi Leonard $500 rookie was just blessed, I am sure there was a real high chance that card slabbed a month ago by the seller could have been a fake slab.

Awesome, one. That’s actually the highest total I’ve seen yet. This program isn’t doing anything but route cash to PSA to… authenticate the plastic holder (we all know what really matters and it ain’t the card). That people want to defend this as “not everything is perfect” tells you there is no real coherent argument for how this makes a lick of sense. The raw card version can be spun, but this is sillier than a purple sticker and clearly does nothing.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Awesome, one. That’s actually the highest total I’ve seen yet. This program isn’t doing anything but route cash to PSA to… authenticate the plastic holder (we all know what really matters and it ain’t the card). That people want to defend this as “not everything is perfect” tells you there is no real coherent argument for how this makes a lick of sense. The raw card version can be spun, but this is sillier than a purple sticker and clearly does nothing.

There is no way it is sillier than a purple sticker.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Awesome, one. That’s actually the highest total I’ve seen yet. This program isn’t doing anything but route cash to PSA to… authenticate the plastic holder (we all know what really matters and it ain’t the card). That people want to defend this as “not everything is perfect” tells you there is no real coherent argument for how this makes a lick of sense. The raw card version can be spun, but this is sillier than a purple sticker and clearly does nothing.

To repeat. I was involved helping someone who had a PSA 9 major rookie card in what was pretty clearly a fake slab. PSA instead of identifying it as such so he could get his money back from a major auction gave it a new cert number and reholdered it. I don't trust them to spot fakes. Certainly, during the period it was more of a problem (on certain cards, never across the board), they didn't issue any guidance to collectors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Awesome, one. That’s actually the highest total I’ve seen yet. This program isn’t doing anything but route cash to PSA to… authenticate the plastic holder (we all know what really matters and it ain’t the card). That people want to defend this as “not everything is perfect” tells you there is no real coherent argument for how this makes a lick of sense. The raw card version can be spun, but this is sillier than a purple sticker and clearly does nothing.

But you and I are the heavies for opposing a program aimed at weeding out fraud. LOL.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But you and I are the heavies for opposing a program aimed at weeding out fraud. LOL.

A program aimed at weeding out fraud would, of course, actually look at the card, the item we are ostensibly buying, and not it’s plastic holder. It’s pretty hard to be a reasonable person and a PSA shill these days, but there is no lack of effort.

This program is great if you own part of PSA. The raw version I disagree with but there is a reasoned argument for. The graded version here is clearly designed to not actually do anything - PSA won’t do any review that would make them have to fulfill their guarantee and pay out on the thousands and thousands of mistakes and frauds they’ve certified and continue to certify.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It also gives a false sense of security to people who don't read the fine print; the big print is misleading.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It also gives a false sense of security to people who don't read the fine print; the big print is misleading.

I have very low expectations of people and companies and expect self-serving deceit and corruption. Still, when I first got a card from this program I was a little surprised at just how little it actually says about what they have done. Even here it doesn’t seem common knowledge that they are NOT examining the card at all, and I get why. They have really buried what they are doing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I have very low expectations of people and companies and expect self-serving deceit and corruption. Still, when I first got a card from this program I was a little surprised at just how little it actually says about what they have done. Even here it doesn’t seem common knowledge that they are NOT examining the card at all, and I get why. They have really buried what they are doing.

What you get from PSA is actually quite deceptive. Reading from one that came today:

Authentic without a doubt (in bold)

Your CARD (my emphasis) has been meticulously inspected by a team of experts, so you can display it with total confidence.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What you get from PSA is actually quite deceptive. Reading from one that came today:

Authentic without a doubt (in bold)

Your CARD (my emphasis) has been meticulously inspected by a team of experts, so you can display it with total confidence.

My interpretation is that they covering ass by this phrasing; by certifying the slab is legit that means, of course, the card was inspected by a team (well, 1 it seems) of experts. Of course it SOUNDS like your card was inspected again. It’s not just incomplete, it’s incredibly dishonest without technically being an absolute lie.

I do not always like eBay’s choices, but by and large they have historically been honorable to buyers, with a generous refund policy and other policies designed around protecting buyers. This is absolute bullshit, how they very intentionally are misleading buyers now about what’s actually going on. Even if one likes this program that is just rubber stamping every slab again, they should be against the undeniably dishonest marketing and statements eBay makes about it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

My interpretation is that they covering ass by this phrasing; by certifying the slab is legit that means, of course, the card was inspected by a team (well, 1 it seems) of experts. Of course it SOUNDS like your card was inspected again. It’s not just incomplete, it’s incredibly dishonest without technically being an absolute lie.

I do not always like eBay’s choices, but by and large they have historically been honorable to buyers, with a generous refund policy and other policies designed around protecting buyers. This is absolute bullshit, how they very intentionally are misleading buyers now about what’s actually going on. Even if one likes this program that is just rubber stamping every slab again, they should be against the undeniably dishonest marketing and statements eBay makes about it.

Yeah, maybe there's some Clintonesque way to make it literally true, but anyone reading it is going to assume it describes what was JUST done in the review and it is 100 percent deceptive unless you go read the fine print. Indeed, it seems tailored to the CSG review, not the PSA.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, maybe there's some Clintonesque way to make it literally true, but anyone reading it is going to assume it describes what was JUST done in the review and it is 100 percent deceptive unless you go read the fine print. Indeed, it seems tailored to the CSG review, not the PSA.

Exactly. Clintonesque honesty is little better than outright lying. It can be clever and effective, but it’s disappointing eBay is choosing this path. The PSA program is a stupid rubberstamping but they could at least describe it truthfully. That they won’t, and they have had ample time to adjust how they talk about it here, should tell folks that this is difficult to justify. Not even eBay wants to talk about what it’s actually doing; a buried sentence in an old announcement is, I believe, the only honest telling that has been given that they are just looking at the slab itself and ignoring the card.

[Bcwcardz]

Excuse me if this has been asked. Would this card pass through the authentication program if it was sold raw like that? I don’t think so but if the Gods blessed it then it must be so, I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Exactly. Clintonesque honesty is little better than outright lying. It can be clever and effective, but it’s disappointing eBay is choosing this path. The PSA program is a stupid rubberstamping but they could at least describe it truthfully. That they won’t, and they have had ample time to adjust how they talk about it here, should tell folks that this is difficult to justify. Not even eBay wants to talk about what it’s actually doing; a buried sentence in an old announcement is, I believe, the only honest telling that has been given that they are just looking at the slab itself and ignoring the card.

One can imagine, as more and more of these things come out of the program and get put back on ebay, how many auctions are going to do what the Tiger Woods one does and overstate the effect of the "authentication." So the great anti fraud program will become a vehicle for deception.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Bcwcardz

Excuse me if this has been asked. Would this card pass through the authentication program if it was sold raw like that? I don’t think so but if the Gods blessed it then it must be so, I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would hope CSG would notice it’s obviously cut down and reject it in the raw program where they ostensibly look at the actual card. I don’t feel like I’ve seen enough to guess if they are even more or less likely than PSA to certify obvious frauds.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One can imagine, as more and more of these things come out of the program and get put back on ebay, how many auctions are going to do what the Tiger Woods one does and overstate the effect of the "authentication." So the great anti fraud program will become a vehicle for deception.

The “void” seal is so laughably bad that you can swap any card into it too. As none of the documentation comes with anything that identifies the actual card, you can just easily swap in anything and claim it was verified.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The “void” seal is so laughably bad that you can swap any card into it too. As none of the documentation comes with anything that identifies the actual card, you can just easily swap in anything and claim it was verified.

Isn't there some scannable code that identifies the card?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Isn't there some scannable code that identifies the card?

Yes, but you’d only get that after you receive the fraud and the seller has run off with the cash. I don’t see this as a way to scam on eBay itself, but selling on the forums and discords, it’s probably going to crop up. The presentation looks good but doesn’t identify the card beyond the code that no one will run even if they get a close up to actually scan in advance (how many buyers are running PSA cert numbers before the purchase? 1%?)