OT: Hall of Fame - Edgar Martinez?

[perezfan]

The Hall of Fame voting will be released later today, and according to the Tracker it's looking pretty clear-cut (except for one player in particular...)

IN:
Chipper
Vlad
Thome
Hoffman (barely)

OUT:
Mussina
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
And the remainder of the field, who have no chance this year.

But the one fellow truly on the bubble is Edgar Martinez. It's a crowded field this year... perhaps Edgar gets in next year (which is his final year of eligibility). Much of the debate surrounds the DH position in general.

What do you think... Is Edgar a Hall of Famer?

[packs]

To me he is. I think he'll be similar to Jim Rice i.e. the "you had to see him play" argument. No one wanted to see him at the plate.

[pclpads]

Far from being a"5 tool" player, he was strictly one dimensional. Very good at what he did, but is that HOF worthy? I say no.

[packs]

I'd say Thome was a pretty one dimensional player. But if you can put a guy in for hitting homers, you should be able to put a guy in for being a professional hitter too.

[drcy]

He's a local hero here in Seattle, and they even have a street named after him. The local news here is totally biased for him. However, I'm not particularly a Mariners (or Seahawks) fan, so I don't have the homer bias.

[Touch'EmAll]

How about the only athlete in history to be an All-Star in both Major League Baseball and the National Football League? His short lived career highlight film is jam packed with seemingly unending absolutely incredible mind-boggling plays - Power! Defense! Offense! off the chart! Some of these other guys mentioned couldn't even hold his jock strap. Famous, you ask? Yup, big time!

[SteveMitchell]

Yes, in my view Edgar clearly belongs with baseball's best. He was the finest right-handed hitter I ever saw and, according to many, a hitter no pitcher wanted to face in clutch situations. Professional all the way. Not a hint of steroids. Men of character and excellence like Edgar made baseball the great institution it became and he continues to contribute to the community as well as serving as hitting coach for the Seattle Mariners.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by SteveMitchell

Yes, in my view Edgar clearly belongs with baseball's best. He was the finest right-handed hitter I ever saw and, according to many, a hitter no pitcher wanted to face in clutch situations.

I can think of at least one team that currently has two players on its roster that I'd rank ahead of Edgar on the list of finest right-handed hitters I ever saw.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I can think of at least one team that currently has two players on its roster that I'd rank ahead of Edgar on the list of finest right-handed hitters I ever saw.

The Angels (Pujols and Trout?) would be my guess as to what you're suggesting.

That said, I knew this would be a great debate. Have not counted up the "yays and nays" but it seems to be a near-perfect split. One factor not discussed much was Edgar's clutch hitting and his ability to get the key hit when they needed it most. Tough to measure that factor statistically, but having watched him throughout his career, I can say he was one of the best.

Great guy as well... I personally hope Edgar gets in on his last ballot.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The Angels (Pujols and Trout?) would be my guess as to what you're suggesting.

That said, I knew this would be a great debate. Have not counted up the "yays and nays" but it seems to be a near-perfect split. One factor not discussed much was Edgar's clutch hitting and his ability to get the key hit when they needed it most. Tough to measure that factor statistically, but having watched him throughout his career, I can say he was one of the best.

Great guy as well... I personally hope Edgar gets in on his last ballot.

Statistics say he wasn't a clutch hitter. He was a better hitter with the bases empty than with RISP. .263 hitter with 2 outs and RISP. Let's just throw out all stats and just elect the guys we watched and thought they did things that they really didn't.

[packs]

That would ignore his 375 average and 20 RBIs in 17 ALDS games. Sounds clutch to me. I remember the series against the Yankees in 1995. You wanted anyone up besides Edgar. He had 10 RBIs in 5 games.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Statistics say he wasn't a clutch hitter. He was a better hitter with the bases empty than with RISP. .263 hitter with 2 outs and RISP. Let's just throw out all stats and just elect the guys we watched and thought they did things that they really didn't.

Yeah I am guessing most of the legendary clutch hitters of subjective memory would not stand up to the stats.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The Angels (Pujols and Trout?) would be my guess as to what you're suggesting.

That is correct.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by SteveMitchell

Yes, in my view Edgar clearly belongs with baseball's best. He was the finest right-handed hitter I ever saw and, according to many, a hitter no pitcher wanted to face in clutch situations. Professional all the way. Not a hint of steroids. Men of character and excellence like Edgar made baseball the great institution it became and he continues to contribute to the community as well as serving as hitting coach for the Seattle Mariners.

When we use our eyeball test to determine if the person used steroids or not is where it falls apart for me. It seems that Seattle had somewhat of a steroid culture as referred to in Rookiemonster's post above. Bret Boone comes to mind with his outlier season and many whispers. Never proven, only innuendo, but if it was in the locker room and part of the culture, what makes us think that other Mariners were not involved? Was it because we witnessed no acne on their back? Apparently that doesn't even matter because we will put Piazza in and there were rumblings about his need for benzoil peroxide on his back. Is it because there was never a report of a request for a larger hat size? Because we know that is the tipping point for hall of fame support.


Is Martinez a HOFer? I don't think so, but I don't want a DH in before Papi because I am eagerly awaiting the selective outrage and pearl clutching with Ortiz from the same media that didn't like Bonds or Clemens because Papi was a "nice, fun, guy" and we want to brush is accusation and innuendo under the rug.

I have never been a fan of closers and their made up save stat getting in. Most are failed starters. Do we think that a number 3 or 4 starter with an out pitch that would work for 3 outs a game but not for 27 outs a game could rack up saves and get in? Probably a lot of rebuttal against that, but the Reds proved in the 90's/early 2000's that person X could be put in and get 40 saves.

Bonds was a 3 time MVP before even the biggest of critics even suggested there was anything going on. Clemens won 192 games in Boston, struck out 20 two times and won 3 Cy Young awards and was only in his mid-30's. Roger went so far as to put his life on the line criminally and stand in front of congress and still walks as a free man. Technicality? maybe, but they refused to convict him - yet the BBWAA sure will

Until those two get in, the rest of the debate and conversation is just fodder and arguing about the skinniest fat guy or the tallest little person or something like that.

[packs]

Mariano Rivera was an elite closer for 18 years. You're going to say he's nothing more than a failed starter? His ERA in 96 career postseason games is 0.70. Come on. Hyperbole is the death of your argument.

Your other argument is that Edgar might have decided to cheat in 2001 at 38 years old?

[kailes2872]

According to Rivera bio, he, himself, was a failed starter.

After being called up to the major leagues on May 16, 1995,[29] Rivera made his debut for the New York Yankees on May 23 against the California Angels.[4] Starting in place of injured pitcher Jimmy Key,[30] Rivera allowed five earned runs in ​3 1⁄3 innings pitched in a 10–0 loss.[4] He struggled through his first four major league starts, posting a 10.20 ERA, and as a result, he was demoted to Columbus on June 11.[4] As a 25-year-old rookie just three years removed from major arm surgery, his spot on the team was not guaranteed. Management considered trading him to the Detroit Tigers for starter David Wells.[31] While recovering from a sore shoulder in the minor leagues, Rivera pitched a no-hit shutout in a rain-shortened five-inning start.[32] Reports from the game indicated that his pitches had reached 95–96 mph (153–154 km/h), about 6 mph (9.7 km/h) faster than his previous average velocity; Rivera attributes his inexplicable improvement to God. Yankees general manager Gene Michael was skeptical of the reports until verifying that Columbus' radar gun was not faulty and that another team's scout had taken the same measurements. Afterwards, he ended any trade negotiations involving Rivera.[27] On July 4, in his first start back in the major leagues, Rivera pitched eight scoreless innings against the Chicago White Sox, allowing just two hits while striking out 11 batters.[33] In five subsequent starts, he was unable to match his success from that game.[33] After a brief demotion to Columbus in August, Rivera made one last start in the major leagues in September before he was moved to the Yankees' bullpen.[27] Overall, he finished his first major league season with a 5–3 record and a 5.51 ERA in ten starts and nine relief outings.[34] His performance in the 1995 American League Division Series, in which he pitched ​5 1⁄3 scoreless innings of relief, convinced Yankees management to keep him and convert him to a relief pitcher the following season.[35]

PS - I will stop the argument now and concede that Rivera will be a walk in into the HOF. I am going to take a deep breath and relax as this HOF discussion drives me crazy every year as we try to parse out who did and didn't do steroids and where our line of morality stops and starts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

According to Rivera bio, he, himself, was a failed starter.





PS - I will stop the argument now and concede that Rivera will be a walk in into the HOF. I am going to take a deep breath and relax as this HOF discussion drives me crazy every year as we try to parse out who did and didn't do steroids and where our line of morality stops and starts.

All innings in theory should count the same, right? All runs count the same. Shutting a team down in the first should be as important as shutting them down in the ninth. The most active of closers are throwing what, 80 innings a year? What is your average starter throwing? Who's more important? If Rivera is really good enough to be a starter, don't you want him throwing twice as many innings for you?