Ethical to sell 1952 Mantle PSA 8 uncracked case

[1952boyntoncollector]

bidding at $100+ for fake card.....I would think throwing it out would be the right thing to do and not send it out...maybe the famous net54 fraud check guy will buy it..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uncracked-PS...3D221640596138

[pawpawdiv9]

Based on what i read- this guy bought a PSA 8 holder, that a 52 Mick used to be in. (after carefully reading) He puts a pic of the card inside it?
So, the folks are buying basically a holder with a pic of the card? or am i missing something?

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by pawpawdiv9

Based on what i read- this guy bought a PSA 8 holder, that a 52 Mick used to be in. (after carefully reading) He puts a pic of the card inside it?
So, the folks are buying basically a holder with a pic of the card? or am i missing something?

Not exactly. He claims the case originally held a Yzerman RC card and the case basically fell apart on him when he received it back from PSA. He then took pictures of a real Mantle card and a real Mantle flip and put them inside the case in order to fool his friends.

[gregr2]

What????????

"I took the case to the Nationals and had a dealer beg me to sell it to him for $68,000.00."

[Leon]

This is slightly interesting so I moved it from a BST section...not sure why it was there anyway, as it should have gone in the Pre-1980 Postwar section. Anyone else willing to pay 68k for a holder? Sounds like a pretty good deal.

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by gregr2

What????????

"I took the case to the Nationals and had a dealer beg me to sell it to him for $68,000.00."

Maybe the lighting was bad at that table. Happens.

[digdugdig]

Originally Posted by gregr2

What????????

"I took the case to the Nationals and had a dealer beg me to sell it to him for $68,000.00."

Me thinks this is the reason people are bidding, unfortunately it will pop up again somewhere with a wee bit heavier price tag on it.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Griffins

Maybe the lighting was bad at that table. Happens.

Zing!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pathetic, truly.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by griffins

maybe the lighting was bad at that table. Happens.

lmao

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

This is slightly interesting so I moved it from a BST section...not sure why it was there anyway, as it should have gone in the Pre-1980 Postwar section. Anyone else willing to pay 68k for a holder? Sounds like a pretty good deal.

wow I started a thread slightly interesting..thats the best so far!..


as to my question.......usualy when you see lots of lots of words and long storys in the seller description on an iconic card.....its usually shady.

I just question the holder getting into the wrong hands...who the heck else is buying it....the fact he says was offered 68k...

I just don't think fakes in legit holders no matter how well accurate the description shouldn't be for sale...... cant sell fake us currency for example that appears real even if you are accurate in a description...

would you want 1000 real holders out there that were bought by buyers knowing that the cards that would be put in there aren't accurately described in the holder?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by digdugdig

Me thinks this is the reason people are bidding, unfortunately it will pop up again somewhere with a wee bit heavier price tag on it.

right watch out for a mantle psa 8 for 60% of the VCP sale price... (everyone keeps saying 60% is what fakes sell for in prior threads in examples) man just saved 150k+...except I wouldn't of paid that if the guy wanted me to pay by check and if Ian hasn't identified the alleged scam guy yet .....it would of been by paypal..

[sycks22]

It's sad that people like this guy ruin ebay. We all know it's going to be some kid who stole his dad's paypal and thinks he's getting a $100k card without even reading the description. I bet he does that same thing with a Wagner or Ruth in the near future and steal another couple hundo.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[AustinMike]

Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there, but ... when I look at the scans in the listing, I see major league frosting in all 4 sides of the case. Does anyone else? Isn't frosting a sure sign of a tampered with case?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

wow I started a thread slightly interesting..thats the best so far!..


....

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard, it was still in the wrong section.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there, but ... when I look at the scans in the listing, I see major league frosting in all 4 sides of the case. Does anyone else? Isn't frosting a sure sign of a tampered with case?

That's what I see. Whole thing is a joke

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

...maybe the famous net54 fraud check guy will buy it..

Seriously - who would that be?

[Jeffrompa]

That's nuts !

[frankbmd]

i sent the seller a message explaining how fraud could be facilitated by this sale.
He was kind enough to respond


I understand your concern. I no longer want the case for my personal collection. I started the auction off at .99 cents and let it end where it may. There are over 60 people watching it as of right now with 28 bids. I was as honest as I could be in the description and explained in great detail exactly what was being sold. In your professional opinion how would you recommend I sell this item. Thanks and God Bless!!



I responded to him as follows,


The listing has been posted on a message board I and many other collectors frequent. Collectively we have ongoing concerns about fraud in the hobby. Since both the holder and the Mantle photo have no intrinsic value, dollars spent for the holder imply that a buyer is looking to profit from spending hundreds to get it. Your watchers and interest in your auction probably spiked after the listing was posted on our and perhaps other messages boards. I can easily accept from your response that you are not engaged in fraud, but may be inadvertently facilitating it. The right thing to do in my opinion would be to discontinue the auction and destroy the holder.


We'll see what his response is.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[xplainer]

I sent him a message telling him he is a scammer and is assisting other scammers. I called him scum of the hobby. I expect no answer. He is pos for doing this.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by xplainer

I sent him a message telling him he is a scammer and is assisting other scammers. I called him scum of the hobby. I expect no answer. He is pos for doing this.

Why does the baseball collecting hobby collect the most despicable people that walk the earth? It is just sickening.

[Tom S.]

Wouldn't taking a picture of a real flip and reusing it be construed as copyright infringement in the eyes of PSA? Potentially getting this guy into a lot of hot water?

If his National "story" was true, that guy should have taken the $68K and ran. If it was me, I would have blown it all on overpriced cocktails and Ferris wheel rides.

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

Wouldn't taking a picture of a real flip and reusing it be construed as copyright infringement in the eyes of PSA? Potentially getting this guy into a lot of hot water?

If his National "story" was true, that guy should have taken the $68K and ran. If it was me, I would have blown it all on overpriced cocktails and Ferris wheel rides.

I'm sure the National story is another lie. If psa was open , I'd call them myself. This is incredible. Thanks OP for making this aware to us.

[CardboardCollector]

Why would a dealer at the National offer $68K unless he miss represented it. It looks like he is saying it's good enough to fool a dealer.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Why does the baseball collecting hobby collect the most despicable people that walk the earth? It is just sickening.

It's pretty much a microcosm of society, no better or worse, in my opinion. For those of us that don't cheat and only want to have fun collecting (admittedly I do make some money from the hobby, but my first passion is collecting), it makes it challenging sometimes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Why does the baseball collecting hobby collect the most despicable people that walk the earth? It is just sickening.

It's endemic to any line of business or other activity where money is involved, baseball cards are nothing special in this regard.

[xplainer]

Ok. Reported it with ebay as fraudulent posting. Also sent email to PSA. That will be Tuesday. Did what I can. This really pisses me off. Big time.

[freakhappy]

I can see where this sort of thing (empty Mantle flip) can be a collector's item, but unfortunately...it cannot be a collector's item because of the damage it can do to the hobby. I want to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, but if he doesn't listen to Frank and take what he's saying serious, then it's obvious that he only cares about the amount of money he can gain from it.

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Leon

It's pretty much a microcosm of society, no better or worse, in my opinion. For those of us that don't cheat and only want to have fun collecting (admittedly I do make some money from the hobby, but my first passion is collecting), it makes it challenging sometimes.

Leon, it's not about making money, it's about cheating people and makng money on them.

Cheating people is never right. I know that's not you meant Leon. This crap must be mèt head on and disributed. We must speak out and tell the truth. This guy is a scammer and supplies other scammers.
- Jimmy

[EvilKing00]

By usung an altered pic of the flip hes deff doing wrong by psa, and im sure they would want to know. I sent him an email too.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by xplainer

Leon, it's not about making money, it's about cheating people and makng money on them.

Cheating people is never right. I know that's not you meant Leon. This crap must be mèt head on and disributed. We must speak out and tell the truth. This guy is a scammer and supplies other scammers.
- Jimmy

Cheating and fraud is never good. This board has been quite good, historically speaking, about rooting a lot of it out.

[EvilKing00]

Id hope a few would report this seller to psa that is if it wasnt done already

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

i sent the seller a message explaining how fraud could be facilitated by this sale.
He was kind enough to respond


I understand your concern. I no longer want the case for my personal collection. I started the auction off at .99 cents and let it end where it may. There are over 60 people watching it as of right now with 28 bids. I was as honest as I could be in the description and explained in great detail exactly what was being sold. In your professional opinion how would you recommend I sell this item. Thanks and God Bless!!



I responded to him as follows,


The listing has been posted on a message board I and many other collectors frequent. Collectively we have ongoing concerns about fraud in the hobby. Since both the holder and the Mantle photo have no intrinsic value, dollars spent for the holder imply that a buyer is looking to profit from spending hundreds to get it. Your watchers and interest in your auction probably spiked after the listing was posted on our and perhaps other messages boards. I can easily accept from your response that you are not engaged in fraud, but may be inadvertently facilitating it. The right thing to do in my opinion would be to discontinue the auction and destroy the holder.


We'll see what his response is.

great email man....im glad I brought this to the boards attention.....and not wasting the boards time with my posts..

[EvilKing00]

I reported to ebay and psa in the hopes someone dosnt get ripped off big time down the road from the new owner. Altering that flip is fraud. Kind of like me selling fake $50 bills on ebay and saying they are fake.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

If his National "story" was true, that guy should have taken the $68K and ran. If it was me, I would have blown it all on overpriced cocktails and Ferris wheel rides.

Really? - Ferris Wheel Rides?

[xplainer]

Here is his response to my message through eBay:

I never intended for the case to be sold for an insane amount of money. When I used the case to have fun with my friends I never tried to sell it. I do think there is some value to it just as a novelty item as i explained in my description. I completely understand your point that someone may try to use it in a fraudulent way but that never crossed my mind until others mentioned it. A scammer is always going to try and scam. Hopefully the message board and even other collectors can learn from this case and auction to really inspect a card and not just trust the case (PRO Grading is a prime example). I feel I was as honest as possible in the description and was very responsible with the case. A toy gun if misused can be utilized in the wrong way but toy companies still sell them. That is not the toy company's intent nor is fraudulent activity mine. I appreciate the conversation. Thanks

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by xplainer

Here is his response to my message through eBay:

I never intended for the case to be sold for an insane amount of money. When I used the case to have fun with my friends I never tried to sell it. I do think there is some value to it just as a novelty item as i explained in my description. I completely understand your point that someone may try to use it in a fraudulent way but that never crossed my mind until others mentioned it. A scammer is always going to try and scam. Hopefully the message board and even other collectors can learn from this case and auction to really inspect a card and not just trust the case (PRO Grading is a prime example). I feel I was as honest as possible in the description and was very responsible with the case. A toy gun if misused can be utilized in the wrong way but toy companies still sell them. That is not the toy company's intent nor is fraudulent activity mine. I appreciate the conversation. Thanks

lmao - he sent me the same exact responce

[vintagehofrookies]

Originally Posted by digdugdig

Me thinks this is the reason people are bidding, unfortunately it will pop up again somewhere with a wee bit heavier price tag on it.

this is exactly what I was thinking which is explains why its over $200 so far. Keep your eyes open at the National this year as this might be making an appearance.

[sycks22]

"I am not trying to scam anyone. I went into great detail to be as specific as possible"

That's what he wrote me. What a joke.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by xplainer

Here is his response to my message through eBay:

I never intended for the case to be sold for an insane amount of money. When I used the case to have fun with my friends I never tried to sell it. I do think there is some value to it just as a novelty item as i explained in my description. I completely understand your point that someone may try to use it in a fraudulent way but that never crossed my mind until others mentioned it. A scammer is always going to try and scam. Hopefully the message board and even other collectors can learn from this case and auction to really inspect a card and not just trust the case (PRO Grading is a prime example). I feel I was as honest as possible in the description and was very responsible with the case. A toy gun if misused can be utilized in the wrong way but toy companies still sell them. That is not the toy company's intent nor is fraudulent activity mine. I appreciate the conversation. Thanks

Ok I am going to be different here. This has got to be the stupidest thread I have seen on Net54 in my short time being here. Seller is 100% saying it is a novelty item with the case not even resealed. Why the hell is everyone flipping out on this when we have real issues with scammers. Hell we even have scammers(yes more than 1) on this board now that for some reason people won't out.

The best part is some of the people posting how terrible this novelty item is use Problemstein to sell their cards.LOL

What next are you going to form a gang to harass fellow member Bob Lemke because he makes "custom" cards that someone could in the future try to scam someone with. Sorry Bob just using you as an example I like your and everyone else's custom cards.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Ok I am going to be different here. This has got to be the stupidest thread I have seen on Net54 in my short time being here. Seller is 100% saying it is a novelty item with the case not even resealed. Why the hell is everyone flipping out on this when we have real issues with scammers. Hell we even have scammers(yes more than 1) on this board now that for some reason people won't out.

What next are you going to form a gang to harass fellow member Bob Lemke because he makes "custom" cards that someone could in the future try to scam someone with. Sorry Bob just using you as an example I like your and everyone else's custom cards.

if I was selling fake $50 bills on ebay for $5, saying they were fake but looked real would that be ok?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

if I was selling fake $50 bills on ebay for $5, saying they were fake but looked real would that be ok?

Yes as long as they are advertised as fake/novelty it would be fine with me. Just like the 100's of listing for fake money on eBay right now. Actually I believe one of our members is selling fake/novelty cash on ebay now.

[vintagehofrookies]

Ben, I think the big issue is this PSA case going into someone else's hands with different intentions than the sellers

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies

Ben, I think the big issue is this PSA case going into someone else's hands with different intentions than the sellers

I understand that issue but the exact same thing can be said about Bob's custom cards.

[frankbmd]

Is the mechanic who tunes up the get away car for a bank robbery a criminal?

[EvilKing00]

I just think that "FAKING" the PSA flip - although he fully admits to doing so is wrong and probably illegal - and im sure PSA wouldn't like this card being sold like this and will hate it when this card gets sold for big money and someone finds out its fake

[HappyJack41]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Is the mechanic who tunes up the get away car for a bank robbery a criminal?

Can you prove the mechanic was informed of the details as to what the car was to be used for?.....

It's not what you know, it's what you can prove

[Econteachert205]

It seems like ethics and illegality are being mixed here and there. It doesn't seem to me that the ebay sale is illegal. As far as ethics, it seems that the seller has clearly stated the nature of the piece being sold which again I do not believe to be illegal. It is then a question of the seller to see the unintended consequences (fraud) which could come out of the sale. Actually some members obviously think those are the intended consequences. At any rate it is a good discussion from the perspective of the sellers responsibility.