The Actual Top 20 Lifetime HR Leaders (OT)

[GregMitch34]

I am among those who have always come down hard on PEDs so I did a lifetime HR list if you take the (biggest) cheaters out. (See link below.) Yeah, I know, that even without PEDs a Bonds or McGwire might have made list if he stayed clean but--tough luck.

I'll also note that I really miss the days of olde...going back to my boyhood in latter part of 1950s--when you'd get excited when anyone had about 27 HRs by July 4 (like Abreu today) and have a shot at the Babe or later Roger. Now it's ruined--unless we can get consensus that 61 is still the record...

http://bit.ly/1jrAYmV

[clydepepper]

I almost totally agree, but want to believe in Pujols

Either way, it's still Bad Henry's Crown

[GregMitch34]

Funny Chris Davis plunge this year, no?

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Funny Chris Davis plunge this year, no?

1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

[ATP]

In regards to the opening paragraph of the list, if Jr. isn't clean than I don't know if anyone from that era was...or at least I hope that is the case.

[GregMitch34]

Junior averaged 52 HRs a year for 4 years--at peak of steroid era. Hardly anyone in history had ever done that, pre-1990s. Just saying.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by ATP

In regards to the opening paragraph of the list, if Jr. isn't clean than I don't know if anyone from that era was...or at least I hope that is the case.

In my opinion, I have always thought Junior was juicing. Not right away, but after some of these other guys started pulling away. It's sad because he had such a sweet swing. He put on serious muscle and then late in his career started falling apart like all the other guys whose bodies couldn't handle all the unnatural muscle packed on. It is what it is, but I would bet serious money Griffey was on it and he didn't have to be. 5 tool player before that.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

I agree. I don't think Davis is a steroid user. I live just outside of Arlington, so I got a chance to see Davis play for the Rangers. He's shown this same power ever since he was called up to the Majors. He hit 38 home runs in his first 686 at bats over two seasons. The problem is the Rangers never used him as a full-time player.

Davis is going through the same thing Ryan Braun has been battling most of the season. First, Braun had the thumb injury, which was bad enough, because it meant he couldn't tell how tightly he was gripping the handle. His thumb has been black and blue on and off. Then he suffered an oblique injury, and he's still battling it. He's not able to pull the ball like he normally can because of it. All of his hits right now are going to right or right center field. Eventually, those will heal, and both Davis and Braun will see their power numbers jump back up. For now, at least Braun is still being productive, as he's driven in 49 runs despite missing 16 games on the DL.

[Fred]

I think a lot of people look at Grif Jr. and Pujols as sacred cows that they don't want to believe ever to a PED. Both are/were very talented but who knows for sure if they used PEDs, only they know for sure. Bonds would have hit 500HRs without the juice, too bad he now holds the records for season and lifetime HRs.

Hey, where's Crime Dog on that top 20 list?

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

I'm not a BiG PED Hater, David Schoenfield of ESPN Seems to have Mr Chris Davis somewhat figured out.
I don't believe that Mr Davis is a PED Guy...
I believe in STATS, Otherwise Guys like Cobb wouldn't be in the Hall.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...th-chris-davis

However, Since this game has begun Players have looked for an Edge, And We as Fan's Majority Have Always Rooted for them oN.
And my opinion is Who ever is in the Books 100 years from Now,
"Will be in the Books!" And that's what Really Will Matters...

Players PED's usage will be talked about as mush as Cobb's Anger issue's!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scoring is overrated. Look at the excitement of a 2-1 or 1-0 baseball or soccer or hockey game. Or for that matter any relatively low scoring basketball game compared to the alternative.

[Jim65]

I don't know for a fact that all those players are clean. Only they know for sure.

[brewing]

Any chance the ball was juiced?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by brewing

Any chance the ball was juiced?

I firmly believe it was. I still vividly remember all the "Chicks dig the long ball" commercials with Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine in the mid-late 1990s. I'm convinced MLB juiced the baseballs to get fans back after the 1994 strike. They wanted players to hit more homeruns, since it was exciting and created more fan interest, i.e., money flooding MLB's coffers.

Steve

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Steve D

They wanted players to hit more homeruns, since it was exciting and created more fan interest, i.e., money flooding MLB's coffers.

Whether balls were juiced or not (I definitely don't discount juiced balls, especially in 1987), I agree, baseball absolutely wanted more HRs. Baseball profited immensly during this era, and attendance and TV viewership (mainly local cable) numbers have never really lost the gains made during that late '90s.

As a life long fan/player/etc, I didn't really like the juiced up, high scoring style of play during the roid era.. but clearly the bulk of fans, and the always important "casual fan" really did. Seeing the premium on speed, gloves, and in game tactics evaporate in lieu of a bloop and a bomb, or just a few bombs, bothered me. I'm glad baseball is back to looking more like the baseball I grew up with. There's still more power than the '80s, which admittedly is nice, but we still see a lot of 3-2, 2-1, 1-0 games. Pitching is strong and there seems to be an influx of speedy top of the order and/or glove first types making their way back into the game.

As for the person who mentioned Ryan and Ripken, I've been suspiscious of both. Not that there's any damning evidence, nor am I making accusations, but it does annoy me when fans/media put certain players on a pedastal of immunity, while seeming intent on destroying others. I get that some guys (like Bonds) opened themselves to increased scrutiny by being unfriendly to the press, but please, are those in the press really so thin skinned?? Bonds for one grew up watching the press turn on his dad, and seeing his dad eventually become an alcoholic. Not that I give a pass for any number of other things he did, but I had no problem with his being surly and untrusting toward those in media. The media in general has done a lot more damage to players and their families than players have done to them.

Anyway, back to the steroid era, something that really bothers me is that MLB, its owners, and gutless commissioner profited greatly, and still do to this day. However they receive very little scrutiny over the era and how it unfolded. The public responsibility seems to fall squarely on the shoulders of players... and inordanitely on Bonds', Clemens' shoulders, as compared to loveable types like Big Papi and others. If Selig (see no evil, hear no evil as long a profits are coming in, or as long as Henry Aaron's record is not in jeopardy) is eventually enshrined in Cooperstown, I'll vomit. IMO, he and baseball should bare far more criticism for not taking any true steps to fight proliferation of steroids until long after public and governemnt sentiment demanded they do so.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Anyway, back to the steroid era, something that really bothers me is that MLB, its owners, and gutless commissioner profited greatly, and still do to this day. However they receive very little scrutiny over the era and how it unfolded. The public responsibility seems to fall squarely on the shoulders of players... and inordanitely on Bonds', Clemens' shoulders, as compared to loveable types like Big Papi and others. If Selig (see no evil, hear no evil as long a profits are coming in, or as long as Henry Aaron's record is not in jeopardy) is eventually enshrined in Cooperstown, I'll vomit. IMO, he and baseball should bare far more criticism for not taking any true steps to fight proliferation of steroids until long after public and governemnt sentiment demanded they do so.

Boom! Agreed. Why do we celebrate Torre and Larussa getting into the HOF so easily when they directly benefited from having players on their teams on PEDs? Whether they knew or not (yeah right), their WS and win totals are directly related to roided up players.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I don't care who people "think" juiced. I am curious about evidence about players that might have juiced.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Maris only had two other seasons above 30. Not quite Brady Anderson, but pretty aberrational. Nobody questions his 61 however. The point being, if Maris can hit 61, why can't Griffey (a supremely talented player) average 50 for a few years without raising suspicions?

[packs]

I think playing alongside Mantle during that season was what enabled Maris to accomplish what he did. He had Mantle right behind him to push him. Everyone plays better around heightened competition. I don't think Maris ever does what he did if it weren't for Mantle's competition.

After 1961 he was essentially finished. The season took so much out of him so I'm not surprised he never again came close, despite being only 26 years old when he broke the record.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I always liked this photo.

[sniffy5]

Pujols has always looked the same: huge. My personal belief is that he has been taking illegal substances for his entire career. I know all of us sooooo want to believe our favorite players are clean, but it's probably just not the case. The fact is that PED use was, and probably still is, encouraged by agents, coaches, managers, and MLB (and the NFL). Many of us work out regularly. There's a reason we don't look like Pujols, Clemens, Ray Lewis, et al. And if someone told me to rub some cream on my arms that will never be detected in a test, and I'll get so good that I'd land a 125 million dollar contract, I'd do it too.

[GHCHambone]

" The Mitchell Report also stated that interviews were requested of five MLB players who had spoken out publicly on the steroid issue. Of these players, only one, Frank Thomas, was willing to be interviewed. The Mitchell Report stated that there was no evidence that any of these five had used performance-enhancing drugs."

[GHCHambone]

(From Wikipedia article)

[sniffy5]

Frank Thomas came from the world of college football. Lord knows what he may have experimented with. But he's another really nice guy. It seems to me that fans really only truly vilify players that broke truly cherished records while obviously using steroids or HGH. Although McGwire gets a pass from some because he eventually admitted it ( far too late.) Bonds, Sosa...forget it. Same with Clemens. People hate him for his lies, his cheating, and his relationship with a 10TH GRADE girl when he was a married 30 year old man (she has since committed suicide.) And if course Palmeiro. But guys like Thomas, Pujols, even Pudge Rodriguez, who was down there in Texas juicing with Juan Gonzales and Canseco...nobody seems to care so much anymore. But if Pujols or Ortiz starting sniffing 61 or 715, it would be a different story...

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by sniffy5

Frank Thomas came from the world of college football. Lord knows what he may have experimented with. But he's another really nice guy. It seems to me that fans really only truly vilify players that broke truly cherished records while obviously using steroids or HGH. Although McGwire gets a pass from some because he eventually admitted it ( far too late.) Bonds, Sosa...forget it. Same with Clemens. People hate him for his lies, his cheating, and his relationship with a 10TH GRADE girl when he was a married 30 year old man (she has since committed suicide.) And if course Palmeiro. But guys like Thomas, Pujols, even Pudge Rodriguez, who was down there in Texas juicing with Juan Gonzales and Canseco...nobody seems to care so much anymore. But if Pujols or Ortiz starting sniffing 61 or 715, it would be a different story...

While I probably am at least a little bid bias towards a hometown player, Frank Thomas's body has been same since he was in high school.

[packs]

Pudge has always been someone I personally think may have dipped into the PEDs.

In 1992 he was listed at 5'9 165 pounds.

In 1995, 3 years later, he was listed at 5'9 205 pounds.

Maybe it's possible to add 40 pounds of muscle in 3 season at the gym. But that seems like a lot to me.

[sniffy5]

Wasn't Ivan Rodriguez also hitting 50 HRs at one point as well?