The Actual Top 20 Lifetime HR Leaders (OT)

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Funny Chris Davis plunge this year, no?

1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

[ATP]

In regards to the opening paragraph of the list, if Jr. isn't clean than I don't know if anyone from that era was...or at least I hope that is the case.

[GregMitch34]

Junior averaged 52 HRs a year for 4 years--at peak of steroid era. Hardly anyone in history had ever done that, pre-1990s. Just saying.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Junior averaged 52 HRs a year for 4 years--at peak of steroid era. Hardly anyone in history had ever done that, pre-1990s. Just saying.

Griffey Jr. was an amazing talent in a potent lineup who put up those numbers at a small dome. He also got injured. A lot. Aren't PEDs supposed to aid in quick recovery?

[MattyC]

With regard to the slight and implication on Griffey above... I think that's one heck of an unfair leap-- with no hard evidence-- to besmirch such a great player. Talent, hard work, and advances in training, nutrition, and sports medicine can also lead to high achievement. Some fans see PED use behind so many players. What about guys like Koufax or Molitor who had seemingly anomalous spikes in performance; perhaps they found some miracle edge, as well? I just think it makes no sense to sweepingly blanket-erase everyone from an entire era. I surmise by the same logic that Boggs juiced in 87 as well, and the list of boogeymen can go on. And I'm not even a Griffey fan. I think it really hamstrings one's credibility, if one is willing to besmirch a player based merely on being present and doing well in that era. If that's all the criteria it takes to be branded a PED user...

[GregMitch34]

Yeah, we heard that 15 years ago from people who doubted PED use--attributing HR records to "hard work, and advances in training, nutrition, and sports medicine." How did that hold up? Same "advances" today but HR totals dwindled. Again, Griffey HRs spiked at exact time we saw it from known PED users. We used to be told that Piazza was not a suspect either and then a lot of circumstantial evidence came out and it's hurt his Hall chances. Again: no proof but a taint.

And, no, PEDs tend to cause later injuries, not heal them.

Really, comparing Koufax's "spike" to players to PED era? Really?

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by ATP

In regards to the opening paragraph of the list, if Jr. isn't clean than I don't know if anyone from that era was...or at least I hope that is the case.

In my opinion, I have always thought Junior was juicing. Not right away, but after some of these other guys started pulling away. It's sad because he had such a sweet swing. He put on serious muscle and then late in his career started falling apart like all the other guys whose bodies couldn't handle all the unnatural muscle packed on. It is what it is, but I would bet serious money Griffey was on it and he didn't have to be. 5 tool player before that.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

I agree. I don't think Davis is a steroid user. I live just outside of Arlington, so I got a chance to see Davis play for the Rangers. He's shown this same power ever since he was called up to the Majors. He hit 38 home runs in his first 686 at bats over two seasons. The problem is the Rangers never used him as a full-time player.

Davis is going through the same thing Ryan Braun has been battling most of the season. First, Braun had the thumb injury, which was bad enough, because it meant he couldn't tell how tightly he was gripping the handle. His thumb has been black and blue on and off. Then he suffered an oblique injury, and he's still battling it. He's not able to pull the ball like he normally can because of it. All of his hits right now are going to right or right center field. Eventually, those will heal, and both Davis and Braun will see their power numbers jump back up. For now, at least Braun is still being productive, as he's driven in 49 runs despite missing 16 games on the DL.

[Fred]

I think a lot of people look at Grif Jr. and Pujols as sacred cows that they don't want to believe ever to a PED. Both are/were very talented but who knows for sure if they used PEDs, only they know for sure. Bonds would have hit 500HRs without the juice, too bad he now holds the records for season and lifetime HRs.

Hey, where's Crime Dog on that top 20 list?

[clydepepper]

By the way, I do not own cards of anybody I believe to have used.

I do, however, own plenty of Jr. Griffey and Thome

...and that goes for pitchers too...don't own any Clemens cards, but I have a lot of Pedro!

Just trying to keep integrity in my hobby.

hope this thread gets some book sales for you, Greg

[71buc]

I watched Jr. from day one of his career in Seattle. He played the game the right way. He never had the second prime of a Barry Bonds. Was he a petulant Prima Donna, absolutely, a juicer, no way. This is the danger of PEDs everybody is suspected even without evidence. When you compare Griffey to a known steroid user like Sosa according to www.baseball-reference.com you can see that Sosa compared well to some above average players. However from age 32 through 38 he was comparable to a future HOF member named Griffey Junior. Junior is the only HOF caliber player Sosa compares to at any age. Other than a juiced Sosa, and Cedeno, who posted ridiculous numbers early in his career, Junior was comparable to the legends of the game throughout his career at virtually every age . If you give PEDs to an above average player he will perform like a PEDs legend. You give them to an supremely talented and genetically gifted athlete like Bonds and you create a monster.


Most Similar by Ages Sosa

21. Jack Clark (972) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
22. Lloyd Moseby (967) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
23. Chili Davis (961) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
24. Curt Blefary (967) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
25. Jim Wynn (957) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
26. Jim Wynn (947) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
27. Tony Conigliaro (952) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
28. Dale Murphy (937) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
29. Darryl Strawberry (949) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
30. Jose Canseco (914) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
31. Dale Murphy (895) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
32. Ken Griffey (867) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
33. Ken Griffey (908) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
34. Ken Griffey (915) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
35. Ken Griffey (906) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
36. Ken Griffey (904) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
38. Ken Griffey (869) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

Most Similar by Ages Griffey

21. Mickey Mantle (960) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
22. Cesar Cedeno (955) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
23. Mickey Mantle (936) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
24. Mickey Mantle (935) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
25. Miguel Cabrera (957) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
26. Frank Robinson (954) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
27. Frank Robinson (944) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
28. Frank Robinson (919) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
29. Frank Robinson (906) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
30. Frank Robinson (916) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
31. Frank Robinson (923) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
32. Frank Robinson (915) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
33. Sammy Sosa (908) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
34. Sammy Sosa (915) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
35. Sammy Sosa (906) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
36. Sammy Sosa (904) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
37. Frank Robinson (886) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
38. Frank Robinson (887) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

By the way, I do not own cards of anybody I believe to have used.

I do, however, own plenty of Jr. Griffey and Thome

...and that goes for pitchers too...don't own any Clemens cards, but I have a lot of Pedro!

Just trying to keep integrity in my hobby.

hope this thread gets some book sales for you, Greg

Forensic analysis of baseball cards is one way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[GregMitch34]

The argument that players should just be compared to others in their era is fair--if the playing field, so to speak, is level. But it's not when, let's say, half of the stars are cheating and the other half not. So yes, you could say--Barry Bonds was a somewhat better slugger than Sammy Sosa. And on the unproven side, you could say Jim Thome was a somewhat better slugger than Fred McGriff. To me it's sad that this is the only valid measure. Others don't seem to be bothered by it.

As for Griffey having a "normal career trajectory"--true, he peaked in what should be his peak age. But no one before the PED era except the Babe ever averaged 52 HRs a year for four years, during those peak years, as Griffey did. And then he fell apart with one injury after another, starting when he was only in his early '30s--which didn't happen with most of the previous superstars.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are amphetamines PEDs? Or only drugs that build muscle?

[clydepepper]

As for Griffey having a "normal career trajectory"--true, he peaked in what should be his peak age. But no one before the PED era except the Babe ever averaged 52 HRs a year for four years, during those peak years, as Griffey did. And then he fell apart with one injury after another, starting when he was only in his early '30s--which didn't happen with most of the previous superstars.[/QUOTE]


Griffey's injuries did not occur just to age and normal wear and tear. He broke his wrist early on due to the way he played his position which is one of the most physically demanding positions anyway you play it. The late-career leg injuries were all the results of effort, not 'coming down' off something. Accumulating injuries almost always come with age...unless you're chemically altered.

Griffey and bonds had almost exactly the same advantages (over Aaron and Mays, etc.), but Griffey took the road less traveled, the (morally) right one.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by Fred

Hey, where's Crime Dog on that top 20 list?

Mcgriff should definitely be mentioned here. His 493 career HR's tie him with Gehrig who is shown on the list!

[Piratedogcardshows]

On another note. I suppose Steve Carlton is still the career leader in K's since the top three on the list more than likely used roids.

[GregMitch34]

You care to cite Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson evidence on steroids?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Koufax had frequent injections of cortisone (a steroid) in his elbow. Is it different when a doctor prescribes it?

[MattyC]

The "evidence" presented in this thread against Griffey is just not at all impressive and convincing. Seriously, if that's all the logic and proof one needs to smear someone's achievements, why watch any pro baseball after the mid 1980's? It's a bitter, cynical, and unfortunate prism through which to view things.

So, a spike in the roid era means roid usage. But a spike before the known steroid era means clean and earned achievement? As any player will concede, there were always performance enhancers of one type or another in each era, things players took for "an edge." So let's just be fair and not consider players from a past era sacrosanct and divine, and anyone with a spike in the steroid era guilty. It should still come down to innocent until proven guilty, and mere suspicion cannot be enough to erase someone from the record books. This does mean some guilty but unproven parties will skate, but better that than an innocent party be ruined by mere suspicion alone.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

You care to cite Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson evidence on steroids?

I have the same proof you have to accuse some of the players you mentioned. Just a glance at some stats and a feeling.

Nolan Ryan had 1 200 inning season from Age 36-39
Nolan Ryan had 4 200 inning seasons from Age 40-43

Plus classic roid rage in the Ventura Fight!

The whole steroids make you recover from injuries quicker and get back on the field makes me think of Cal's consecutive games streak. But I digress.....

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

1.) Chris Davis' "plunge" started during the second half of last season
2.) Davis has spent time on the DL due to an oblique injury. Such injuries affect swings and zap power.
3.) American League pitchers have figured out that Davis' power is limited to inside fastballs. The majority of the pitches he has seen are low and outside....where he is prone to chase
4.) Davis has been far less selective this season.

Far more convincing reasons than steroid speculation.

I'm not a BiG PED Hater, David Schoenfield of ESPN Seems to have Mr Chris Davis somewhat figured out.
I don't believe that Mr Davis is a PED Guy...
I believe in STATS, Otherwise Guys like Cobb wouldn't be in the Hall.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...th-chris-davis

However, Since this game has begun Players have looked for an Edge, And We as Fan's Majority Have Always Rooted for them oN.
And my opinion is Who ever is in the Books 100 years from Now,
"Will be in the Books!" And that's what Really Will Matters...

Players PED's usage will be talked about as mush as Cobb's Anger issue's!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scoring is overrated. Look at the excitement of a 2-1 or 1-0 baseball or soccer or hockey game. Or for that matter any relatively low scoring basketball game compared to the alternative.

[packs]

Good list.

Very surprised people think Griffey juiced. All you had to do was see him swing and you already knew how good he was.

Was Ralph Kiner juicing too? He averaged 52 home runs per 162 games from 1947 to 1950.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scoring is overrated. Look at the excitement of a 2-1 or 1-0 baseball or soccer or hockey game. Or for that matter any relatively low scoring basketball game compared to the alternative.

Not sure if this was in response to my post, but if so, that's how I feel. I love seeing relatively low scoring, sub 3 hour baseball games again (though ESPN broadcasts always seem to add 45 min to 1 hr). These seem to be the norm for Giants games at AT&T, and were very much so during their two WS runs.

In regards to Griffey, I'd like to think he was clean, but have no idea how anyone besides him can say that with any certainty. Braun "looked clean" too- wirey strong with a beautiful swing. Baseball/Selig/Players Union didn't test, so aside from the health reasons, there was no disincentive for players to use. To the point of health risks, I think if players were being 100% honest (especially in that era), it would be startling to see how many in the prime of their lives would be willing to trade long term health for present day success and $$$.

Pujols is also very suspect to me, not only for his appearance, but how prevelent usage was in both the minors and majors when he burst onto the scene. It would be great to have hard evidence to determine who used and who didn't, but short of confessions I don't think we ever will for a majority of them. There were/will be a few high profile guys the government and media will spend countless hours and money to go after, but most of the rest will probably need to test positive to get busted.