Any Opinions on the Helmar cards on Ebay ?

[insidethewrapper]

These cards are not reprints, they are newly made and look like vintage cards. They look like old manufacturers cards, Goudey etc. I can only see confusion in the future when someone tries to sell these as "Vintage" cards. New collectors in the future will not know a "real" card from a "fake vintage looking " card.

[Leon]

Some of them are kind of cool and are bringing healthy prices...I like them though they wouldn't be for me in the way of collecting. I do see their attraction though.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helmar-Brewi...-/120848382956

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...-/120848566830




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[T206DK]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

These cards are not reprints, they are newly made and look like vintage cards. They look like old manufacturers cards, Goudey etc. I can only see confusion in the future when someone tries to sell these as "Vintage" cards. New collectors in the future will not know a "real" card from a "fake vintage looking " card.

some of them are really nice, but his auctions are a massive Shill bidding party if you ever bother to check them out. I don't see how you can have bidders with hundreds of bids and they only seem to bid on this guys items. they rarely win anything, and the fact that the cards are only offfered " a few times a year" gives him the opportunity to alter and relist any cards won by his shill bidding buddies or other accounts he is using.
I'm a fan of the negro league cards and cuban baseball players he does...I just can't bring myself to bid on them anymore because of the shady bid history on most of his items. I've bought a few of the Helmar items from secondary sellers and get them for way cheaper than what he sells them for on his account.

The cards are not worth the exorbitant prices they sell for...it's the actual artwork used to make the cards that is worth something

[alanu]

I really like quite a few of them and have bid on them, but haven't won any.

[HRBAKER]

I've bought a few early on bf the prices started to spike.
I do know the newer ones are dated on back.
The quality is actually very good.

[sirraffles]

I'm kind of proud of this new series, there will be 42 in the set. Thought you might enjoy a picture of the Ty Cobb.

[packs]

How do you make them? Are there paintings of the cards or do you use a program like photoshop? They're really cool.

[sirraffles]

I don't see how you can have bidders with hundreds of bids and they only seem to bid on this guys items.

Hi, if you would kindly let me know which regular bidders you are referring to, I may well be able to have them contact you directly. Virtually every card brings action from a number of different bidders and every card over the last two years has sold. The Helmar items are the most actively bid card items on eBay because they are beautiful and relatively scarce compared to other cards. For example, there are probably 200 1933 Goudey cards on eBay at any one time per 1 of the Helmar version of that set. Regarding your idea that I use multiple eBay names, no, I have just the one.

I like the idea that you have purchased Helmar cards on the secondary market and would encourage that strongly!! Thanks, Charles

You can also call me directly at 248 882 0834. I don't bite.

[danmckee]

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

[drc]

Having just looked at the cards, I have to say the cards are neat and creative. A modern copyright date on the back would be nice, but I like them.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

Yeah, I look at some of the bidders and scratch my head. They only bid on this guys cards ...they bid in small increments every day, they appear to bid on just about all his auctions, and they rarely win anything.
I'm going to try to win one of these cards and see if PSA will grade it. If they do I will post scans. I don't understand why he doesn't date them. I doubt it is an oversight.
I still think they will be produced some day in greater numbers than they are now. If they are being made in China or India it can be done very easily

[drc]

I said I thought the cards themselves were neat, but clearly the winning price on the eBay Joe Jackson is ridiculous.

[sirraffles]

This is Charles from Helmar again. Thanks, guys, for the comments...both complimentary and skeptical. I encourage forthright discussion because I recognize that what Helmar does is a step away from your usual collecting. Whether or not you ever purchase a card, I would like the collecting community to be knowledgeable and comfortable with our art. This is a great hobby and I feel that we bring a little added dimension, a little added vibrancy to it. I would like collectors to consider Helmar a credit to the hobby, whether or not they choose to collect.

First the compliments (of course!): Thank you for the reviews! In addition to some nice comments here, you truly wouldn't believe some of the kind phone calls and emails that I receive. Obviously our art resonates with a certain portion of the market. I can't express how much the compliments mean to all of us and how grateful that we are for them.

More importantly, the skepticism: The main issue seems to be that some of you believe the auction prices realized are "too high". Because of this, you suspect shill bidding. I think that about sums it up. I'll respond to each of these concerns separately, starting with the shill bidding accusation by anonymous member T206DK:

1. Shill Bidding, you would have to agree, is a stupid recipe for long term success. In fact, it makes long term success impossible. You just can't have a viable, long term venture based upon a fraud, especially one as prone to suspicion as shill bidding. We don't engage in shill bidding for three reasons. First, it is immoral. Second, it would eventually doom the business and third, we don't need it.

Take the two R319-Helmar Joe Jacksons that sold this week, #205 for $96.54 and #81 for $89.88. The dollar amounts were pretty close. On the #205 there were six bidders in at $75 or more. On the #81 there were also six bidders in at $75 or more. Remarkably, between the two there were eleven different bidders and only one duplicate (he dropped out around $79 each time). With that many bidders, who needs to shill?

T206DK also states that there are some bidders that tend to bid on many different Helmar auctions. Of course...they collect Helmar! And if you want to buy a Helmar art card, where else are you regularly going to find them? I'm sorry, I just find that criticism not very well thought out.

I also wonder where all those phantom shill bidders are when cards go cheaply. And in every auction there are real bargains. This past week, for example, I can think of at least half a dozen cards that went for half or less than normal.

2. High Prices. An auction is the most democratic way to sell and I love using that venue. I have nothing at all to do with the price collectors pay, other than to set a minimum bid (usually a very modest $3.99).

I'm not quite sure what is meant when I read that Helmar auction prices are "too high". I mean, compared to what? There isn't anything exactly like a Helmar card when considered in its totality. If you auction two houses of the same size and in the same neighborhood, is the one with the highest auction price "too high"? No, not if you consider the houses in their totality.

Lastly, I suspect that some collectors think that we get these cards for "free". Our costs have little to do with the little square of cardboard and everything to do with the other costs needed to keep us in business. The cost of the art is foremost. I always lose money when I auction the original artwork. In fact, the prices realized on original art doesn't come close to getting us to even. I generally don't look to make a profit on any new card for the first full year.

I hope that this has been somewhat helpful in understanding more about our art cards. Again, I have enjoyed the conversation. Best, Charles

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

This is Charles from Helmar again. Thanks, guys, for the comments...both complimentary and skeptical. I encourage forthright discussion because I recognize that what Helmar does is a step away from your usual collecting. Whether or not you ever purchase a card, I would like the collecting community to be knowledgeable and comfortable with our art. This is a great hobby and I feel that we bring a little added dimension, a little added vibrancy to it. I would like collectors to consider Helmar a credit to the hobby, whether or not they choose to collect.

First the compliments (of course!): Thank you for the reviews! In addition to some nice comments here, you truly wouldn't believe some of the kind phone calls and emails that I receive. Obviously our art resonates with a certain portion of the market. I can't express how much the compliments mean to all of us and how grateful that we are for them.

More importantly, the skepticism: The main issue seems to be that some of you believe the auction prices realized are "too high". Because of this, you suspect shill bidding. I think that about sums it up. I'll respond to each of these concerns separately, starting with the shill bidding accusation by anonymous member T206DK:

1. Shill Bidding, you would have to agree, is a stupid recipe for long term success. In fact, it makes long term success impossible. You just can't have a viable, long term venture based upon a fraud, especially one as prone to suspicion as shill bidding. We don't engage in shill bidding for three reasons. First, it is immoral. Second, it would eventually doom the business and third, we don't need it.

Take the two R319-Helmar Joe Jacksons that sold this week, #205 for $96.54 and #81 for $89.88. The dollar amounts were pretty close. On the #205 there were six bidders in at $75 or more. On the #81 there were also six bidders in at $75 or more. Remarkably, between the two there were eleven different bidders and only one duplicate (he dropped out around $79 each time). With that many bidders, who needs to shill?

T206DK also states that there are some bidders that tend to bid on many different Helmar auctions. Of course...they collect Helmar! And if you want to buy a Helmar art card, where else are you regularly going to find them? I'm sorry, I just find that criticism not very well thought out.

I also wonder where all those phantom shill bidders are when cards go cheaply. And in every auction there are real bargains. This past week, for example, I can think of at least half a dozen cards that went for half or less than normal.

2. High Prices. An auction is the most democratic way to sell and I love using that venue. I have nothing at all to do with the price collectors pay, other than to set a minimum bid (usually a very modest $3.99).

I'm not quite sure what is meant when I read that Helmar auction prices are "too high". I mean, compared to what? There isn't anything exactly like a Helmar card when considered in its totality. If you auction two houses of the same size and in the same neighborhood, is the one with the highest auction price "too high"? No, not if you consider the houses in their totality.

Lastly, I suspect that some collectors think that we get these cards for "free". Our costs have little to do with the little square of cardboard and everything to do with the other costs needed to keep us in business. The cost of the art is foremost. I always lose money when I auction the original artwork. In fact, the prices realized on original art doesn't come close to getting us to even. I generally don't look to make a profit on any new card for the first full year.

I hope that this has been somewhat helpful in understanding more about our art cards. Again, I have enjoyed the conversation. Best, Charles

Charles , I am hardly anonymous on this board. I am curious as to where the artwork for your cards is produced ? United States, India, Taiwan, China ? how do you know the phone numbers of your best bidders ? I have been selling on Ebay since it's creation and don't know the phone numbers of any of my bidders. I am biding on several of your cards right now Cgharles, if I try to submit them to ebay as Helmar art cards 2012 wil they grade them ??

[npa589]

Good points...

Strictly speaking about the product, I'm saying that it's very creative. I have more than suspected shill bidding, and that it doesn't pass the "gut" test for me - which is why I wouldn't pay a dollar for one. I do agree that dates should be put on them. To keep some kind of aged lore, they could write "21st Century Tobacco".

It smells like shilling, it really does. How often do these top 2 or 3 bidders actually "win" an item? If it's less than 50%, then, well, that's the giveaway. Why would the same "interested 3 collectors" compete with each other, battle it out for the cards, but all walk away with nothing?

Again, though, it can smell like it, but it might not be. If there is NO shilling occuring, I wish them continued success. If they are articificially driving up the prices, then I hope their business crumbles.

Originally Posted by danmckee

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

[Runscott]

Man, I would love to have a 'set' of non-aged Helmars of all the Negro Leaguers cards he has created. They are really great, but alas, it aint happening.

[bbcard1]

Though I think some are attractive, I will pass. The costs are just out of line for what they are in my opinion, but obviously, some folks disagree…and if that's what makes them happy, I'm all for it.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Man, I would love to have a 'set' of non-aged Helmars of all the Negro Leaguers cards he has created. They are really great, but alas, it aint happening.

theoretically, one could copy all his pics ( he used to have a blog with tons of them) and then print them out at high quality on good paper

[peterb69]

These are very nice cards and I praise the maker for the great artistic work. But yes they are just to expensive. I lost out last night on a Pop Llyod T201 looking card that was very nice. But upper $20's is just to much for a new card.

I also do not buy that new crap cards coming out of packs that have pieces of cut uniforms on them either. To expensive and will never hold the value they are today. Much rather spend my money on pre-war or pre-1975 cards.

But if prices come down on Helmar, I'd pop for a couple.

Peter Barrows

[the 'stache]

I've got to admit, I am completely smitten with these.




They put the big baseball card companies trying to cash in on vintage nostalgia to shame. Look at this 2014 Turkey Red card from Topps. What a joke!



The four cards above were out of my price range, but there are others of second-tire Hall of Famers who I might go after. They capture everything I love about pre-war baseball cards.

[dabigyankeeman]

I must admit, i dont have any Helmar cards, and have always been negative towards them, but lately i am getting closer and closer to starting to collect one of old Yankee players. They really are well done, and while i hate reprints beyond belief, they are not reprints, so look out world, i may soon be entering the Helmar collecting world!!!!

[Brian Van Horn]

They are a nice idea and they have good quality, but they serve to confuse new collectors of pre-WWII cards.