Any Opinions on the Helmar cards on Ebay ?

[danmckee]

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

[drc]

Having just looked at the cards, I have to say the cards are neat and creative. A modern copyright date on the back would be nice, but I like them.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

Yeah, I look at some of the bidders and scratch my head. They only bid on this guys cards ...they bid in small increments every day, they appear to bid on just about all his auctions, and they rarely win anything.
I'm going to try to win one of these cards and see if PSA will grade it. If they do I will post scans. I don't understand why he doesn't date them. I doubt it is an oversight.
I still think they will be produced some day in greater numbers than they are now. If they are being made in China or India it can be done very easily

[drc]

I said I thought the cards themselves were neat, but clearly the winning price on the eBay Joe Jackson is ridiculous.

[sirraffles]

This is Charles from Helmar again. Thanks, guys, for the comments...both complimentary and skeptical. I encourage forthright discussion because I recognize that what Helmar does is a step away from your usual collecting. Whether or not you ever purchase a card, I would like the collecting community to be knowledgeable and comfortable with our art. This is a great hobby and I feel that we bring a little added dimension, a little added vibrancy to it. I would like collectors to consider Helmar a credit to the hobby, whether or not they choose to collect.

First the compliments (of course!): Thank you for the reviews! In addition to some nice comments here, you truly wouldn't believe some of the kind phone calls and emails that I receive. Obviously our art resonates with a certain portion of the market. I can't express how much the compliments mean to all of us and how grateful that we are for them.

More importantly, the skepticism: The main issue seems to be that some of you believe the auction prices realized are "too high". Because of this, you suspect shill bidding. I think that about sums it up. I'll respond to each of these concerns separately, starting with the shill bidding accusation by anonymous member T206DK:

1. Shill Bidding, you would have to agree, is a stupid recipe for long term success. In fact, it makes long term success impossible. You just can't have a viable, long term venture based upon a fraud, especially one as prone to suspicion as shill bidding. We don't engage in shill bidding for three reasons. First, it is immoral. Second, it would eventually doom the business and third, we don't need it.

Take the two R319-Helmar Joe Jacksons that sold this week, #205 for $96.54 and #81 for $89.88. The dollar amounts were pretty close. On the #205 there were six bidders in at $75 or more. On the #81 there were also six bidders in at $75 or more. Remarkably, between the two there were eleven different bidders and only one duplicate (he dropped out around $79 each time). With that many bidders, who needs to shill?

T206DK also states that there are some bidders that tend to bid on many different Helmar auctions. Of course...they collect Helmar! And if you want to buy a Helmar art card, where else are you regularly going to find them? I'm sorry, I just find that criticism not very well thought out.

I also wonder where all those phantom shill bidders are when cards go cheaply. And in every auction there are real bargains. This past week, for example, I can think of at least half a dozen cards that went for half or less than normal.

2. High Prices. An auction is the most democratic way to sell and I love using that venue. I have nothing at all to do with the price collectors pay, other than to set a minimum bid (usually a very modest $3.99).

I'm not quite sure what is meant when I read that Helmar auction prices are "too high". I mean, compared to what? There isn't anything exactly like a Helmar card when considered in its totality. If you auction two houses of the same size and in the same neighborhood, is the one with the highest auction price "too high"? No, not if you consider the houses in their totality.

Lastly, I suspect that some collectors think that we get these cards for "free". Our costs have little to do with the little square of cardboard and everything to do with the other costs needed to keep us in business. The cost of the art is foremost. I always lose money when I auction the original artwork. In fact, the prices realized on original art doesn't come close to getting us to even. I generally don't look to make a profit on any new card for the first full year.

I hope that this has been somewhat helpful in understanding more about our art cards. Again, I have enjoyed the conversation. Best, Charles

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

This is Charles from Helmar again. Thanks, guys, for the comments...both complimentary and skeptical. I encourage forthright discussion because I recognize that what Helmar does is a step away from your usual collecting. Whether or not you ever purchase a card, I would like the collecting community to be knowledgeable and comfortable with our art. This is a great hobby and I feel that we bring a little added dimension, a little added vibrancy to it. I would like collectors to consider Helmar a credit to the hobby, whether or not they choose to collect.

First the compliments (of course!): Thank you for the reviews! In addition to some nice comments here, you truly wouldn't believe some of the kind phone calls and emails that I receive. Obviously our art resonates with a certain portion of the market. I can't express how much the compliments mean to all of us and how grateful that we are for them.

More importantly, the skepticism: The main issue seems to be that some of you believe the auction prices realized are "too high". Because of this, you suspect shill bidding. I think that about sums it up. I'll respond to each of these concerns separately, starting with the shill bidding accusation by anonymous member T206DK:

1. Shill Bidding, you would have to agree, is a stupid recipe for long term success. In fact, it makes long term success impossible. You just can't have a viable, long term venture based upon a fraud, especially one as prone to suspicion as shill bidding. We don't engage in shill bidding for three reasons. First, it is immoral. Second, it would eventually doom the business and third, we don't need it.

Take the two R319-Helmar Joe Jacksons that sold this week, #205 for $96.54 and #81 for $89.88. The dollar amounts were pretty close. On the #205 there were six bidders in at $75 or more. On the #81 there were also six bidders in at $75 or more. Remarkably, between the two there were eleven different bidders and only one duplicate (he dropped out around $79 each time). With that many bidders, who needs to shill?

T206DK also states that there are some bidders that tend to bid on many different Helmar auctions. Of course...they collect Helmar! And if you want to buy a Helmar art card, where else are you regularly going to find them? I'm sorry, I just find that criticism not very well thought out.

I also wonder where all those phantom shill bidders are when cards go cheaply. And in every auction there are real bargains. This past week, for example, I can think of at least half a dozen cards that went for half or less than normal.

2. High Prices. An auction is the most democratic way to sell and I love using that venue. I have nothing at all to do with the price collectors pay, other than to set a minimum bid (usually a very modest $3.99).

I'm not quite sure what is meant when I read that Helmar auction prices are "too high". I mean, compared to what? There isn't anything exactly like a Helmar card when considered in its totality. If you auction two houses of the same size and in the same neighborhood, is the one with the highest auction price "too high"? No, not if you consider the houses in their totality.

Lastly, I suspect that some collectors think that we get these cards for "free". Our costs have little to do with the little square of cardboard and everything to do with the other costs needed to keep us in business. The cost of the art is foremost. I always lose money when I auction the original artwork. In fact, the prices realized on original art doesn't come close to getting us to even. I generally don't look to make a profit on any new card for the first full year.

I hope that this has been somewhat helpful in understanding more about our art cards. Again, I have enjoyed the conversation. Best, Charles

Charles , I am hardly anonymous on this board. I am curious as to where the artwork for your cards is produced ? United States, India, Taiwan, China ? how do you know the phone numbers of your best bidders ? I have been selling on Ebay since it's creation and don't know the phone numbers of any of my bidders. I am biding on several of your cards right now Cgharles, if I try to submit them to ebay as Helmar art cards 2012 wil they grade them ??

[sirraffles]

Well, if you don't use your name you are anonymous. I understand, sometimes people would rather say things without having it reflect poorly on their real life. For example, one wouldn't want to appear xenophobic or bigoted. As a father of two children with Asian heritage, I know that to be the case.

As for your question, I have addressed that before. We have three artists here in Michigan, including me, plus Mr. Verma in India. To quote:"One of our artists, Sanjay Verma, does live in India. He is the National Award Winner there and often represents the country for foreign traveling Exhibitions. He is one of the best in the world at what he does and I am honored to work with him. He is also a really good guy. As for your fantasy that you are "pretty sure" that arch fiends are copying our Wagner card and selling them by the dozen at "flea markets"... you are better than that! We do, by the way, keep hi-res scans of every single card that has been made."

I've also worked with another National Award Winner from India, though not at the moment. Can I assume that your question is just one of curiosity, or is this an issue?

[sirraffles]

The phone numbers of bidders is almost always on the Paypal receipt. In addition to my number being on my website, I also give it out freely, not being anonymous. But of course I normally correspond via email and develop good relationships with interested parties.

Right now on my email newsletter list there are about 800 people. To get on the list one has had to either purchase something or request it.

I also sent out 60 Christmas gifts that I made by hand. Would you like me to copy you on some of the nice thank you notes?

I'm glad that you are bidding, thank you. I have no idea if they will grade them. Does it matter? I do know that they graded some of the 2005 issue.

Personally, I'm obviously not into grading or I wouldn't beat the heck out of all our cards. It is kind of a revolt, actually. I think it is easy to get carried away with condition.

[npa589]

Good points...

Strictly speaking about the product, I'm saying that it's very creative. I have more than suspected shill bidding, and that it doesn't pass the "gut" test for me - which is why I wouldn't pay a dollar for one. I do agree that dates should be put on them. To keep some kind of aged lore, they could write "21st Century Tobacco".

It smells like shilling, it really does. How often do these top 2 or 3 bidders actually "win" an item? If it's less than 50%, then, well, that's the giveaway. Why would the same "interested 3 collectors" compete with each other, battle it out for the cards, but all walk away with nothing?

Again, though, it can smell like it, but it might not be. If there is NO shilling occuring, I wish them continued success. If they are articificially driving up the prices, then I hope their business crumbles.

Originally Posted by danmckee

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.