Rebacked T206's....heck NO....perhaps, they are Re-Fronted DRUM, HINDU cards ?

[tedzan]

Most in the hobby call these altered T206's...."re-backed". I choose to call them "re-fronted" DRUM's, red HINDU's, LENOX's, etc., etc.

Anyhow, before you dismiss my re-fronted claim, consider the following. These fake T206's were not simply made by laminating a care-
fully sliced Cobb front with a carefully sliced DRUM common, and by applying a thin layer of glue (sandwich style) in order to produce a
rare front/back combo. If this were so, these fakes would have easily been detected by any of the Grading Co's. However, as we know,
many of these altered T206's were graded 10 years ago by PSA and SGC.

I offer the following as a possible scenario for my "re-front" argument. Check-out the following scans....the lower part of the Donlin card
shows the start of image disintegration, typical of white-bordered cards that have been affected by adverse conditions. I have seen this
ink-flaking effect moreso on E-cards (E98, etc.) than T206's. In any event, the Piedmont 350 card (center) was a T206 Peaches Graham.
It had extensive image disintegration. I carefully scraped the ink flakes off it, resulting in a "Blank Front" T206 (seen in the right scan).

I tell you this in order that you can appreciate the thin-film like laminate that constitutes the front image of most of the white-bordered
cards. So my contention is, that a professional paper restorer can remove (or reproduce) the front of a T206 and very precisely applique
this paper-thin image onto a carefully prepared Blank Front. There are adhering mediums that are virtually undetectable in this process.




Now, we have had some debates on the authenticity of the (one & only) T206 red Cobb with the red HINDU back. If the above scenario,
as I have described here, has any merit, it could explain why this card was undetected by the graders. A scan of this Cobb card is found
in the following thread in Post #14......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=Hindu%27s

The following subtle flaws on this Cobb may be indicative of a re-fronted Red Cobb laminate onto a red HINDU card's (blank) front........

(1) There is a rough line, that ever so slightly descends across (and just below) the top border, that looks like a possible laminate edge.

(2) A suspicious vertical line on the top white border (1/6 in from the left). In that location, it cannot be a "proof" hash-mark. What is it ?


Furthermore, if this re-front scenario is valid, it explains why only white-bordered cards are altered. The gold-bordered cards (T205's, etc.)
would be virtually impossible to alter....using this technique.


Please feel free to post your comments on any aspects of this thread ?


TED Z

[steve B]

Seems plausible to me.

In the late 70's there was a "craft" that involved making transparencies from printed matter. A bit of scotch tape or better yet packing tape, a bowl of water and a bit of rubbing to remove the paper and the transparency was done and ready to frame as a suncatcher. I did a couple 79 Topps commons and it was pretty easy.

Substitute some better plastic film, and an adhesive that can be easily removed from the ink after it's been readhered to a new card and it's pretty likely the process.

Prepping the card to provide a new back looks a bit tougher. The scraped surface would be obvious because it's not smooth. But I'm betting some simple chemicals would do the trick, leaving the smooth white cardboard surface.

Steve B

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

Seems plausible to me.

In the late 70's there was a "craft" that involved making transparencies from printed matter. A bit of scotch tape or better yet packing tape, a bowl of water and a bit of rubbing to remove the paper and the transparency was done and ready to frame as a suncatcher. I did a couple 79 Topps commons and it was pretty easy.

Substitute some better plastic film, and an adhesive that can be easily removed from the ink after it's been readhered to a new card and it's pretty likely the process.

Prepping the card to provide a new back looks a bit tougher. The scraped surface would be obvious because it's not smooth. But I'm betting some simple chemicals would do the trick, leaving the smooth white cardboard surface.

Steve B

That's extremely scary.

[cfc1909]

this may be too much information for certain people...
Don't want to take anything away fom your post but this is scary.

[onlychild]

Ted,

There is no debate necessary. You are absolutely correct, cards are refronted!

Not only t206's but 205's...or most other issues for that matter up until the 1980's. I believe I may have posted about the term some time back. Refronting should be the appropriate term used. I use rebacking on my website, since it is what most are familiar with. Here are a few examples of the ridiculously thin pics from my website:

http://www.alteredcards.com/gallery4.htm

The real trick is actually removing or lifting the entire picture. To complete it all takes so many steps it's almost crazy and requires a number of doctoring skills. Once done, it is virtually undetectable even by the most trained eye.

There are no seams to detect since there are no seams. Fractional picture layering on front, several surface wrinkles and/or tiny bumps when angled under a halogen are just a few things to look for.

Here is a finished product. A t205 pic lifted and placed on a t206 card that had the pic removed.



Ted....now armed with this info, you can go crazy with the accusations. This will be fun, since you now know it is not only plausible but probable and with merit.

A couple years back, I offered to take off work and train the "most senior" PSA graders on this and other alteration procedures at no cost. Joe refused and instead offered to let me take the grader test...oh well I tried.

*Side note to collectors - Please don't ask about any part of the procedure or send emails thinking I will tell anyone in secrecy. Ted, feel free to email questions, if it will help your cause.

Enjoy!

Kevin

[T206DK]

yes Ted, cards can be re-fronted. I have seen a card one of my collecting friends did for fun. It had an Art Fromme front and an Obak reverse. I have seen T206 cards carefully seperated front from back also, so it can be done. Glue formulations that can't be detected by graders are easy to come up with. sophisticated adhesives didn't hit the market until around WWII, so most "glues" were simple hide glues or plant based glues.

[T206DK]

that's amazing that Joe Orlando wouldn't let you teach the graders there. And you offered to do it gratis ! I don't understand that at all. you would think he would want his graders to be as knowledgeable as possible.

[tedzan]

I am really surprised that a T205 front can be removed intact. Thanks for posting the scan.

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?

Furthermore, does anyone really care ? ?


TED Z

[jp1216]

Kevin - wow that front/back combo (and picture) is scary. I hope the likes of SGC and PSA keep up with this stuff.
10 years from now - a book comes out - "How I took down Net54"... LOL
Author will write about selling/trading his 'authenticated' fakes to members to acquire the greatest collection.

[iggyman]

Ted,

I'm sure we all care. Most of us are passionate about our cards and to various degrees have some amount of money invested into this so-called hobby. We would like to assume that "all" card surgeons are terrible spellers and their forgeries can be easily spotted. But as your post suggest, that is not always the case. High-level fraud is rampant in our society (or any other society were $$$ and human beings are involved)......not much can be done about that. Our only defense is to question every new "find" and document the work of old-time collectors like yourself. Lets face the facts, this hobby relies way too much on the card graders at SGC/PSA. When in actuality, both companies are in the business of entombing cards as quickly as possible (they probably spend less then a minute authenticating a card). With that said, as collectors we have three choices, either leave the hobby, choose to be oblivious, or acquire knowledge. Hopefully, the majority choose option three.

Lovely Day...

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?
TED Z

Since the backs have their names, stats, and biographies on them I think it would be a bit hard to change fronts on T205s.

[tedzan]

" If its any consolation, id rather have a nice looking rebuilt then a old beater, in cards, cars, and ladies! "


CARS......my 1957 original T-Bird with some "rebuilt" goodies under the hood.







My 1960 T-Bird with original goodies under the hood.






CARDS......my "rebuilt" T206's











LADIES......however, nothing "rebuilt" about my wife (the right lady)






TED Z