Printing Errors.. Why aren't they all valuable?

[Blunder19]

Just wondering why cards like the Noodgrass missing the S... and Dopner variation.. are worth so much $$... but other cards with similar errors are not worth extra $$.. an example is the Lundgren Chi variation below.. no paper loss.. the "N" is clearly missing... so it reads more like LUl.DGREN ... but not any different then a normal Lundgren..

probably because someone has not collected enough of them to corner th market and then demand them be recognized. They will all be recognized someday I am sure.

BTW is it only excluded to 1 single back, or multipule backs found this way?

[bijoem]

simple lack of interest.

there has to be demand outweighing supply for the price to go up.

[Leon]

It seems like I have this conversation almost every day. Value is always a 2 sided equation, demand vs supply, as Joe said. Many print errors are valuable but there has to be demand for the particular card. Here is one for the newbies on the board who might not have seen it....

[T206Collector]

....I think Murr'y, nodgrass and Shappe are really lame variations that shouldn't be recognized as legitimate printing errors like, e.g., Magie and Doyle N.Y. Nat'l.

In other words your Lundgren is every bit as (un)special as nodgrass to me!

A lot of times people will try to collect these things cause they heard on an internet chat board that someone somewhere is paying a premium for them. Don't believe the hype!

[iggyman]

Leon,

I've been painstakingly researching that upside-down T206 Mullaney for ya. I realize that my William Howard Taft theory was shot down due to cutting edge technology ("ear lobe forensic science" --- thanks for nothing David!!!) But this time I've got it. It's not Cy Young on that image but "William Randolph Hearst!" The time-line fits perfectly and it makes alot of sense for some printing press operator to use his image for printer scraps. I realize the truth hurts sometimes and this revelation definitely shoots down the value.....so if you want to get rid of it, please forward a PM and I will FYI a SASE.

Lovely Day...

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Leon

It seems like I have this conversation almost every day. Value is always a 2 sided equation, demand vs supply, as Joe said. Many print errors are valuable but there has to be demand for the particular card. Here is one for the newbies on the board who might not have seen it....

What I alway love about that card is thinking of the number of time that cardboard sheet must have passed through the printing presses. On the back it looks like you have Piedmont, Old Mill, EPDG (twice, right side up and upside down) , and Cy. The printer must have used and reused that scrap every time he changed the presses.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

All you have to do is post it on the board about every six months, in about 2 years there might be 3 or 4 collectors that decide they want it. You than give it do a auction house to over hype the card for what it is and the next thing you know the card is worth thousands of dollars.

It's a simple equation, it's happened in the past and I am sure it will happen again.

Lee

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by bowlingshoegiverouterguy

All you have to do is post it on the board about every six months, in about 2 years there might be 3 or 4 collectors that decide they want it. You than give it do a auction house to over hype the card for what it is and the next thing you know the card is worth thousands of dollars.

It's also a game of musical chairs -- the elasticity of demand on these things is very high, meaning you had better hope the demand is still there when you ultimately decide to sell your Lundgren, partial letter missing variation.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It's also a game of musical chairs -- the elasticity of demand on these things is very high, meaning you had better hope the demand is still there when you ultimately decide to sell your Lundgren, partial letter missing variation.

However, if you really like something and get enjoyment from it, then the value becomes a little bit less important. Please note my exact words . In other words, I know I paid a ton for the printers scrap above....if I go to sell it and get a fair amount less then it's ok as I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it.

[Bigb13]

I have to did out my Lundgren because I think it is like yours. Rob

[Blunder19]

now we have 2 then Rob ... looks like we've cornered the market..

Hear this everyone... only 2 Lundgren errors... special price of only$4,995 and you can own one of these priceless rarities

[T206.org]

Jamie, if another one shows up then I am all for calling it a legit printing variation and I think it deserves a premium, personally.

Rob, let's see a scan!

I am still waiting for another Wiltse Portrait No Cap Half-Y to show up.
http://www.t206.org/misc/wiltsenocap_2.jpg

[cfc1909]

the 206 set is littered with these-it is just now that investors are noticing-most collectors have known about these, because they actually look at their cards...

Personally I would never pay for a missing letter, I would rather have a nice common or HOF card with a tough ad on the reverse.

[barrysloate]

I'm with Jim and others on this one. I'm shocked at what collectors are willing to pay for what is no more than a very minor printing glitch, caused by a tiny foreign object getting lodged on the plate. It could be no more than a piece of dust that got in the way of the ink. But I suppose it is the market, not my opinion, that determines the price.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

However, if you really like something and get enjoyment from it, then the value becomes a little bit less important. Please note my exact words . In other words, I know I paid a ton for the printers scrap above....if I go to sell it and get a fair amount less then it's ok as I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it.

Slow down, Leon. Huge difference between your monster-Young-ghost printers-scrappy-color-form-Southern-Leaguery-thingamawhosee and a spec of dust that makes R look like P. I wouldn't fret about losing your return on that investment any time soon.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Slow down, Leon. Huge difference between your monster-Young-ghost printers-scrappy-color-form-Southern-Leaguery-thingamawhosee and a spec of dust that makes R look like P. I wouldn't fret about losing your return on that investment any time soon.

Paul- may I use your definition in the future? I think it's probably the best I have seen yet . Ya never really know with cards like this, what they will fetch when you go to sell them, but I am sure there would be some interest. I am not sure to what level/value though. I contacted a few focused 206 collectors before I went wild and won it, and asked what they thought the least value was......then I went way above that and won it (as everyone remembers, on ebay). I love my little 206 collection though it makes no rhyme nor reason.

[barrysloate]

Regardless of what Leon's printer's scrap may be worth in the future, it is unquestionably a dramatic, visually dazzling card. Not only does it have multiple overlaying advertising backs, but also boasts a Cy Young portrait thrown into the mix! Can it get better than that?

And how can anyone compare that to the Murray variation where you almost need a loupe to see it. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Paul- may I use your definition in the future? I think it's probably the best I have seen yet.

Absolutely. That card is art and a disaster and no T206 printer's variation could ever come close. In fact, people who collect T206 printer's variations should take one look at your card and go back to collecting regular stuff out of shame.

Variation Collector #1: "Look, someone left the red ink off my Tubby Spencer!"

Leon: "Oh, yeah, someone put everything cool about T206 cards onto my card. If you squint, you can even see the Virgin Mary in Cy Young's silhouette on the back of this Southern Leaguer."

Variation Collector #1: "Damn, my card sucks. I quit."

[T206Collector]

For back collectors we have El Principe De Gales, Piedmont and Brown Old Mill...
For HOF collectors we have Cy Young....
For SL collectors we have Mullaney...
For portrait collectors we have Young portrait...
For action poses we have Mullaney...
For printer's variation collectors we have a reverse Ghost Image...
For multi-back collectors we have 4 different Piedmonts on the back....

It is the complete T206 card.

[teetwoohsix]

Leon,I doubt you ever have to worry about getting your money back on that card-it is for sure a one of a kind-what T206 collector wouldn't want that card????

I love that card-makes me drool,,,,,,,,

[Rob D.]

As much as I understand why Leon likes that card so much, I'm a bit surprised he didn't try to trade it for other high-end T-206s even before he got it in hand.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

As much as I understand why Leon likes that card so much, I'm a bit surprised he didn't try to trade it for other high-end T-206s even before he got it in hand.

Yes, there sort of seems to be a rash of mixed signals in some poster's actions. I am not saying this card will never be sold or traded but it certainly wasn't bought for that reason. It was bought because I like print errors and I felt this one exemplified that better than any I have seen. It's sort of fun to talk about too!! But you guys make me blush with some of the comments. I see a ton of great cards on the board and it certainly keeps it interesting for this collector. (not meaning to talk in 3rd person....) take care

[quinnsryche]

I know people don't like to talk prices about their's or other's cards, BUT, approx. what ballpark price would Leon expect to get for that card if he was to offer it. Sheer curiosity only and feel free not to answer if it makes you too uncomfortable.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

I know people don't like to talk prices about their's or other's cards, BUT, approx. what ballpark price would Leon expect to get for that card if he was to offer it. Sheer curiosity only and feel free not to answer if it makes you too uncomfortable.

I can help a little with the history. Good, bad or indifferent the ebayer put it out there for about 40k at first. Then he put it on ebay with a reserve. We talked a lot about it on the board as the owner had come onto the board to tell how he got it by accident, for practically nothing, in a stack of T206's about 30 yrs ago. (this is all from memory so if I am off a bit please don't kill me). I put a snipe in of about 10.5k and got it for about $9.7k. I had asked a few collectors before then what they thought the least it would get in auction if I had to sell it. They said they would pay at least 5k for it so I was comfortable getting it for 2x of that. IN today's market I will guess 5k-9k....but I could be wrong. Others might have more of an idea. I always welcome other thoughts. You won't hurt my feelings and you won't see it for sale on the BST tomorrow . best regards

[T206Collector]

I think it's a bargain under $10,000.

[JP]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes, there sort of seems to be a rash of mixed signals in some poster's actions.

Hopefully I've cleared that up for you. Sometimes I forget it is hard for people to tell when something is said in jest when it is only available in the written form.

[barrysloate]

It's a card for the specialist, so the pool of T206 collectors interested in it may be small. But there will be at least one or more collectors willing to pay a lot for it, and that's all you need.

[JP]

Leon,

I don't know if you remember or not, but I was embroiled in controversy with that card as well. I offered $8k privately, then was turned down. Then it was listed as a private auction, which was a poor choice, in my opinion. Then I bid $8k right away, and it didn't meet reserve with that. Then the seller privately emails me that even if reserve isn't met that he'll sell to me if I'm high bidder (weird, in my opinion, and sketchy). To make matters worse, right after that conversation, someone bid over and over right up to bslow my high bid by $1. (also sketchy) Then the seller tells me he is going to lower the reserve down to $8k so that my bid would make the auction "reserve met". (not only did I not like that as well, but eBay has protections in place so that can't happen anyway - lowers the top bid to $1 under the new reserve to protect bidders) All of those bad moves by the seller enraged me, and took away my interest in the card. I always felt that this card was a gem and would constantly appreciate in value, so I'm envious of your purchase. The brown old mill strike is the key, in my opinion, to its true value, not Cy Young.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JP

Leon,

I don't know if you remember or not, but I was embroiled in controversy with that card as well. I offered $8k privately, then was turned down. Then it was listed as a private auction, which was a poor choice, in my opinion. Then I bid $8k right away, and it didn't meet reserve with that. Then the seller privately emails me that even if reserve isn't met that he'll sell to me if I'm high bidder (weird, in my opinion, and sketchy). To make matters worse, right after that conversation, someone bid over and over right up to bslow my high bid by $1. (also sketchy) Then the seller tells me he is going to lower the reserve down to $8k so that my bid would make the auction "reserve met". (not only did I not like that as well, but eBay has protections in place so that can't happen anyway - lowers the top bid to $1 under the new reserve to protect bidders) All of those bad moves by the seller enraged me, and took away my interest in the card. I always felt that this card was a gem and would constantly appreciate in value, so I'm envious of your purchase. The brown old mill strike is the key, in my opinion, to its true value, not Cy Young.

That is a great memory JP and exactly the way I now remember it. It was really weird. Another strange twist was that this guy took about 2 weeks to mail the card to me. I was starting to get a bit nervous but had spoken to him several times on the phone so thought it would be ok, and it was ok in the end. It is a card I enjoy a lot and it's good to know it will be in demand if I ever want to part with it. I am sure I would be a little more transparent in it's sale than he was.

edited to say I also think the way he sold it, and his gyrations, cost him some money in the final price

[Anthony S.]

If memory serves, when the previous owner of Leon's card first came onto the board to discuss it (before he sold it to Leon), he mentioned that at one point his home had been burglarized and the robber(s) had stolen one stack of T206's, but had left behind the stack of T206's which contained this card.

[lharri3600]

now there are 3!!

Originally Posted by Blunder19

now we have 2 then Rob ... looks like we've cornered the market..

Hear this everyone... only 2 Lundgren errors... special price of only$4,995 and you can own one of these priceless rarities

[Rob D.]

If Leon's card had been consigned to most major auction houses, there wouldn't have been enough pages in the catalog to contain all of the sugary prose. A hyperglycemia epidemic would have hit the collecting world.

[ethicsprof]

yes, rob,
but it would be a wonderful cotton candy one rather that severe
hyperosmolar ketoacidosis.

best,
barry

[cfc1909]

Originally Posted by Blunder19

now we have 2 then Rob ... looks like we've cornered the market..

Hear this everyone... only 2 Lundgren errors... special price of only$4,995 and you can own one of these priceless rarities

I'll sell you 2 for half of that...

[Blunder19]

So I have had 4 people message/email me and let me know they too have a "Ludgren, no N version"

Seems like this was a variation waiting for discovery....

now all we have to do is wait for the collectors to recognize it

You may have a Sweeny no B, Noodgrass, Murr'y, Dopner, ... but no variation set is complete without the "Ludgren"

[JP]

Mine has half of an "N". I think other than Magie and Doyle, any other text printing variations are worth ignoring.

[cfc1909]

Just checked through some notes on the set that are from the mid 90s-identified are around 200 different examples that have a slight change from the original card. Be it a partial S or E or a ' or a , or a ; instead of a , or 2 ll instead of a u or a large , instead of a small , or no O or CREF instead of CREE and the list goes on and on. The Wiltse & Lundgren examples are also identified. Also there are some background changes not just captions...

I would think the scene/background differences are more interesting than the caption or letter changes.

Try this-buy 10 to 20 examples of the same card. Lay them out next to each other and see a variation come to life. Also look at Nat'l from every card.

The reason some are valuable and others are not is because the valuable ones were noticed and checklisted by collectors 50 plus years ago. If this Lundgren was noted and checklisted it probably would bring the same coin as Murray, Sharp and Snodgrass. They are really only valuable because collectors are willing to pay for them.

Just last year we noticed the different color green on the Sovereign 350/460 cards. These are not any more valuable than the other Sovereigns but definately a different color. This set is endless-the longer you collect it th emore you will notice.

[jimonym]

I think Jim's right. There are hundreds of different nuanced variations. I think for most folks whether the card has some punch (in terms of unusualness and visual impact) is what affects monetary value. Leon's card clearly has that. For some people, part of a missing E does. For others it doesn't. Here are two of my favorites (not appearing anytime soon on BST). I think they have some punch. Others may disagree. It's no big deal; I collect what I like.

One of the consequences of the way most T206s were printed (vertical columns of the same card) is that there are lots of the "same" variation out there. By lots I mean a handful, at least. It's amazing how many cards seem like they could be one-offs, and several more are lurking out there somewhere.

[Jantz]

I have to agree with Jim R on this one. The more time spent looking or collecting, even more variances will appear & probably more Ludgrens too.


What are the backs on all of these "Ludgrens"?


Jantz

[ethicsprof]

Jim R is as wise and astute as always.
Time will bring us many for the ERRATA section of T206 but few--and probably only a couple--will survive as key critical errors.
Still, 'tis fun seeing the various 'new ones' along the way.

best,
barry

[Captainhask]

Originally Posted by Jantz

I have to agree with Jim R on this one. The more time spent looking or collecting, even more variances will appear & probably more Ludgrens too.


What are the backs on all of these "Ludgrens"?


Jantz

Mine is a "Chicago" Piedmont 150 Fac 25

[iggyman]

Piedmont 150, Factory 25 Va.

"There real, and they're spectacular!"

please substitute the word "There" with "The T206 Lundgren Cubs variation is......" in the above phrase. Thank you!

Oh, and a big thanks to Blunder as well!

Lovely Day...

[Jantz]

Captainhask & Iggyman - Thank you for posting the back info.

Looks like these "Ludgrens" may all have the same back or series.

Jantz

[Blunder19]

Mine is also a Pied 150 fact 25...

Cant wait to see more turn up...

[Exhibitman]

I have Hoblitzell very similar to that Paskert. The red ink ran out. That happens on Cincy T206s.



I also have a Thomas (A's) missing most of the red in the sky. And this Titus is missing its red ink:



Those sorts of printing anomalies can carry a nice premium from a specialist but you need a really botched card to pull the big bucks



Funny thing is, you'd think modern technology would avoid most of that sort of stuff, but it doesn't: