More interest in raw cards in 2024 - Observations

[ASF123]

Wow! Is that to keep you motivated on the treadmill?

“Strange…those beautiful Mays cards don’t seem to be getting any closer. Maybe if I walk faster…”

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Wow! Is that to keep you motivated on the treadmill?

“Strange…those beautiful Mays cards don’t seem to be getting any closer. Maybe if I walk faster…”

Not quite the same, but I do find that I need something to distract me from the monotony of the treadmill. Between the cardboard and a 75 in big screen, I can usually stay distracted.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by raulus

I probably have a smaller collection than most, but it’s definitely possible to enjoy slabbed cards.

Are those Canadian Post Cereal panels above the door? If so, which ones?

[Fred]

There's price comps for slabbed cards so what is the price structure for raw cards? It's understood, one persons Ex-Mt is someone else's NRMT and one persons VG is another's F-G. Using common sense and assuming a card would grade a 6, what is the price difference between a 52T Mantle raw (in Ex-Mt) shape compared to a graded 6 card? Probably a stupid question because anybody with an Ex-Mt Mantle wouldn't leave money on the table and sell it raw. Ok, how about a 1960 Topps Frank Robinson graded vs slabbed (assume Ex-Mt condition)?

I wouldn't mind buying raw cards but I hate it when dealers say "it would grade a 5" and then quote a price for a PSA5 slabbed card. And I'm guessing I'm not the only person annoyed at dealers like that.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by jingram058

The area where I live, Naples-Fort Myers-Cape Coral-Punta Gorda-Port Charlotte, everyone I trade with and associate with are raw cards people. There is a huge flea market here, Flea Masters, and there are a couple of snow birds who sell cards including vintage. They have some graded, but mainly raw. A couple of shops sell cards including some vintage, and they are all graded and in my view, wildly over-priced. Since the same cards are always there, I assume that to be the case. Finally, there is one consignment antique mall with 2 card sellers. One has an extensive collection of 1950s Topps and Bowman, but he wants mint price for beaters. The other has similar, but with realistic prices. I obtained a number of the 1962 Topps I needed for my low-grade complete set from him, including Rookie Parade Uecker, for something like $5. The only place that graded cards rule in my world is here on net54. I don't go to shows anymore; too far away. One of my friends here has an entire garage full of raw cards, climate controlled, professionally stored and inventoried.

Bumping this over to page 2...the state of cards in SW Fla. There's a lot of big money in these parts, and some of these "beautiful people" have cards. I've met them and traded with them on occasion.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Are those Canadian Post Cereal panels above the door? If so, which ones?

The middle one is Canadian. The rest aren’t foreign but were made right here in the good old US of A.

[Balticfox]

I really like the 1962 ones but I'm guessing that it's the presence of Willie Mays that prompted you to acquire those specific panels.

[dougscats]

Not damaging cards when inserting into or taking out of a pocket page is of paramount importance.
What I do for my T206’s is halve a penny sleeve vertically, which will hold two separate cards, and insert a card into the half sleeve. Then I use a six inch flexible plastic ruler (like the kind they might give you in math class that you can put in your shirt pocket), inserted between the back of the card and the sleeve, to push the sleeve down into the pocket.
To take it out, simply pull out the plastic sleeve.

You can do this with any size card/pocket-page. I hardly find it necessary for most other sizes, but you can’t go wrong protecting a valuable card.

I’ll post a scan of a page to show you what it looks like when I get a chance.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by raulus

I probably have a smaller collection than most, but it’s definitely possible to enjoy slabbed cards.

All I see happening is this. Simply substitute your Willie Mays collectibles for the weights...

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I really like the 1962 ones but I'm guessing that it's the presence of Willie Mays that prompted you to acquire those specific panels.

Yep. Some of us are player collectors, which I hear are the least terrible variety for the hobby.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by raulus

Yep. Some of us are player collectors, which I hear are the least terrible variety for the hobby.

Well....

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fred

There's price comps for slabbed cards so what is the price structure for raw cards? It's understood, one persons Ex-Mt is someone else's NRMT and one persons VG is another's F-G. Using common sense and assuming a card would grade a 6, what is the price difference between a 52T Mantle raw (in Ex-Mt) shape compared to a graded 6 card? Probably a stupid question because anybody with an Ex-Mt Mantle wouldn't leave money on the table and sell it raw. Ok, how about a 1960 Topps Frank Robinson graded vs slabbed (assume Ex-Mt condition)?

I wouldn't mind buying raw cards but I hate it when dealers say "it would grade a 5" and then quote a price for a PSA5 slabbed card. And I'm guessing I'm not the only person annoyed at dealers like that.

Who cares what the dealer of raw cards says... simply move on if you disagree with his assessment. Just use your own judgment on raw cards. That's the beauty of collecting, and it's not even difficult. You don't need some random overworked minimum wage stranger judging your cards.

And as far as comps go, what are you even comparing? Yesterday's 7 is today's 5. In addition to today's stricter grading standards, there is no consistency from grader to grader, rendering the comps meaningless.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by raulus

I probably have a smaller collection than most, but it’s definitely possible to enjoy slabbed cards.

That's a very aesthetically pleasing display. What lighting and/or specialized glass do you use to prevent (or at least minimize) fading?

I've contemplated displaying some cards in my home office. I don't want to damage them by doing this, though. The room has one small window and there's a curtain, so direct sunlight wouldn't be an issue. However, the overhead light is on for roughly half the day.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Eric72

That's a very aesthetically pleasing display. What lighting and/or specialized glass do you use to prevent (or at least minimize) fading?

I've contemplated displaying some cards in my home office. I don't want to damage them by doing this, though. The room has one small window and there's a curtain, so direct sunlight wouldn't be an issue. However, the overhead light is on for roughly half the day.

A few things:

I live in Oregon, just outside of Portland, where the sun doesn’t shine for most of the year.

The way this room and the windows are oriented relative to the direction the sun rises and sets, the direct sunlight can’t actually reach the cases.

This room doesn’t get a lot of use, so the overhead lights are not on much. Maybe 1 hour per day on average. I also use LEDs, which I hear are less damaging that way.

The windows all have shades, and I almost always have them closed.

I added UV blocking film to all of the windows in the room.

I added UV blocking film to the display case windows.

I actually added UV blocking film to the larger slabs that are outside of the cases. I guess I won’t be able to sell them on eBay now, as the AG program would probably reject them, but maybe I can disclose that they have film on them, and they’ll be okay.

I installed foam board coverings on each case to block the light. So every time I go for a workout, I spend 30 seconds to uncover them all, and then cover them back up when I’m done.

I figure between all of these methods, I should probably be pretty okay.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by raulus

A few things:

I live in Oregon, just outside of Portland, where the sun doesn’t shine for most of the year.

The way this room and the windows are oriented relative to the direction the sun rises and sets, the direct sunlight can’t actually reach the cases.

This room doesn’t get a lot of use, so the overhead lights are not on much. Maybe 1 hour per day on average. I also use LEDs, which I hear are less damaging that way.

The windows all have shades, and I almost always have them closed.

I added UV blocking film to all of the windows in the room.

I added UV blocking film to the display case windows.

I actually added UV blocking film to the larger slabs that are outside of the cases. I guess I won’t be able to sell them on eBay now, as the AG program would probably reject them, but maybe I can disclose that they have film on them, and they’ll be okay.

I installed foam board coverings on each case to block the light. So every time I go for a workout, I spend 30 seconds to uncover them all, and then cover them back up when I’m done.

I figure between all of these methods, I should probably be pretty okay.

Thank you for the detailed breakdown of the steps you’ve taken. It’s good to hear from someone who balances preservation and a visually appealing display.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I see the thread has been resurrected, which is cool. Someone above
stated that raw cards are making a comeback. Truthfully, they never left
the hobby. The vast majority of existing cards are raw. There are plenty of raw
even at shows where slabs tend to draw more eyes than normal. I really enjoy
picking up a desirable raw card as a "want" or a "need". It's all fun

Trent King

Hey Trent!
When I said raw cards are making a comeback, I meant raw card collectors are making a comeback! (You are right, raw cards never left, but it does seem like more people are going back to collecting raw cards vs graded cards) There will always be a market for graded cards in out hobby but I think more people are going back to collecting for the pure old school joy of collecting.

[campyfan39]

As a raw collector, this is what aggravates me the most. Many dealers now try to sell their really nice conditioned raw ones for graded comps or more.
That has forced me to buy graded and bust them out.
Chris

Originally Posted by Fred

There's price comps for slabbed cards so what is the price structure for raw cards? It's understood, one persons Ex-Mt is someone else's NRMT and one persons VG is another's F-G. Using common sense and assuming a card would grade a 6, what is the price difference between a 52T Mantle raw (in Ex-Mt) shape compared to a graded 6 card? Probably a stupid question because anybody with an Ex-Mt Mantle wouldn't leave money on the table and sell it raw. Ok, how about a 1960 Topps Frank Robinson graded vs slabbed (assume Ex-Mt condition)?

I wouldn't mind buying raw cards but I hate it when dealers say "it would grade a 5" and then quote a price for a PSA5 slabbed card. And I'm guessing I'm not the only person annoyed at dealers like that.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Fred

Ok, how about a 1960 Topps Frank Robinson graded vs slabbed (assume Ex-Mt condition)?

I wouldn't mind buying raw cards but I hate it when dealers say "it would grade a 5" and then quote a price for a PSA5 slabbed card. And I'm guessing I'm not the only person annoyed at dealers like that.

Originally Posted by campyfan39

As a raw collector, this is what aggravates me the most. Many dealers now try to sell their really nice conditioned raw ones for graded comps or more.

I just sneer at dealers who price their raw cards at those of "equivalent" slabbed cards and spend my money elsewhere. One of the reasons why I've stayed with collecting raw cards is that I'm not willing to pay the premium slabbed cards fetch.

[Fred]

I'm still trying to figure out what board members believe is a fair discount rate for ungraded cards (when compared to a comparable slabbed card). If a graded card value comp is $500, then what's a board member willing to pay for a card that appears to be in that condition (but not slabbed)?

What do you say when a dealer says "that's what a graded card would go for"?

My response is (nicely), then perhaps you should get it graded and sell it at that price. To which some dealers cop an attitude and others figure it's time to negotiate.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by jingram058

The area where I live, Naples-Fort Myers-Cape Coral-Punta Gorda-Port Charlotte, everyone I trade with and associate with are raw cards people. There is a huge flea market here, Flea Masters, and there are a couple of snow birds who sell cards including vintage. They have some graded, but mainly raw. A couple of shops sell cards including some vintage, and they are all graded and in my view, wildly over-priced. Since the same cards are always there, I assume that to be the case. Finally, there is one consignment antique mall with 2 card sellers. One has an extensive collection of 1950s Topps and Bowman, but he wants mint price for beaters. The other has similar, but with realistic prices. I obtained a number of the 1962 Topps I needed for my low-grade complete set from him, including Rookie Parade Uecker, for something like $5. The only place that graded cards rule in my world is here on net54. I don't go to shows anymore; too far away. One of my friends here has an entire garage full of raw cards, climate controlled, professionally stored and inventoried.

$5 for a 1962 Topps Uecker Rookie Parade? Was that a recent purchase?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Fred

What do you say when a dealer says "that's what a graded card would go for"?

"Well I'm not willing to pay the premium for graded cards. I buy only lower priced raw cards."

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Fred

I'm still trying to figure out what board members believe is a fair discount rate for ungraded cards (when compared to a comparable slabbed card). If a graded card value comp is $500, then what's a board member willing to pay for a card that appears to be in that condition (but not slabbed)?

That depends on the card. As an example, for a '76 George Brett in "Mint" condition, the difference in price between raw and PSA 9 can be significant. For others, like a Fair/Good T206 common, not so much.

What do you say when a dealer says "that's what a graded card would go for"?

I'd say, "perhaps you should get it graded and sell it at..." Oh, wait. Yep, you nailed it.

My response is (nicely), then perhaps you should get it graded and sell it at that price. To which some dealers cop an attitude and others figure it's time to negotiate.

.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Fred

I'm still trying to figure out what board members believe is a fair discount rate for ungraded cards (when compared to a comparable slabbed card). If a graded card value comp is $500, then what's a board member willing to pay for a card that appears to be in that condition (but not slabbed)?

What do you say when a dealer says "that's what a graded card would go for"?

My response is (nicely), then perhaps you should get it graded and sell it at that price. To which some dealers cop an attitude and others figure it's time to negotiate.

There is no standard discounted amount that raw cards sell for in comparison to graded cards. They're worth just as much outside the slab as they are inside. The amount a buyer is willing to pay is more a function of how confident they are in their ability to predict what it would grade if submitted. If I'm looking at a card that I am very confident will grade a 6, then I'll pay full comps of a 6 to acquire that card. Especially if it's difficult to find otherwise. But that's based on my assessment of the card, not someone else's. If the seller says it's NM-MT and wants PSA 8 pricing for it, then I'm not a buyer obviously. But it works the other way too. If the seller lists it as VGEX but I'm confident it'll grade as a 5, then again, I'll bid as if it's in a 5 holder already. But I'm extremely confident in my ability to grade cards accurately. If you're not confident in your ability to grade cards then you shouldn't be buying them raw to begin with.

[gst6]

I have no strong preference. I think in theory the concern for fakes is higher once you get into pre-WWII cards given their simplicity, so I understand "authenticating," but at the same time, it's not like I'm buying $100K cards here. No one is forging a torn-to-shreds Orval Overall.

I think people get obsessed with the grade, too, and there's probably a market inefficiency there. Compare a random N172 graded a 1 vs one that's graded a 4, and I feel like fairly often the 1 looks as good or better, but a lot of people are just bidding just based on a grade.

Auction houses I think are pretty much exclusively graded cards now, so this probably skews what I've added recently, but I'm not in a rush to grade anything I have that's raw.

I will say... I don't understand grading modern cards at all. It's got to be, what, 90%+ 8s or 9s? And magically all the hyped 1/1s get 10s. To me, card grading is mostly card authenticity, and that's just not needed for something like the Skenes debut patch.

[PhillyFan1883]

I miss the days of raw cards being the majority at shows to be honest. I enjoy going through stacks of raw at the old time dealers still to this day bulding out my sets.

[Balticfox]

Yes! So do I.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gst6

I will say... I don't understand grading modern cards at all. It's got to be, what, 90%+ 8s or 9s? And magically all the hyped 1/1s get 10s. To me, card grading is mostly card authenticity, and that's just not needed for something like the Skenes debut patch.

Grading with modern is really just a mechanism for culling back the insane print runs into 10s and not 10s.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Grading with modern is really just a mechanism for culling back the insane print runs into 10s and not 10s.

What a game!
.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Grading with modern is really just a mechanism for culling back the insane print runs into 10s and not 10s.

Yes! Exactly. It's like I have whole sets of junk wax cards that I bought for $10. Wouldn't it be great to go through the 700 cards to find one that's worth $10 and throw the other 699 out.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

For some sets, you can. I bought a large collection of junk wax sets, ended uo with maybe 100 cards from it. 1990 Score, for example, the Bo Jackson BB/FB card is worth as much as the rest of the set. Pull the Jacksons and a few of the rookies (Thomas, Schilling, Sanders, etc.) and big stars (Griffey, Ryan, Bonds, etc.) and junk the rest.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

For some sets, you can. I bought a large collection of junk wax sets, ended uo with maybe 100 cards from it. 1990 Score, for example, the Bo Jackson BB/FB card is worth as much as the rest of the set. Pull the Jacksons and a few of the rookies (Thomas, Schilling, Sanders, etc.) and big stars (Griffey, Ryan, Bonds, etc.) and junk the rest.

Instead of the junk pile, alternatively you can send them to a artist desperately in search of such material to slice up for use in their baseball card montage creations.

Help a starving baseball card artist in need!


Brian (I am not one of these artists, mainly because I find it difficult to cut cards using the small, rounded point kiddie scissors allowed around me at home)

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

1990 Score, for example, the Bo Jackson BB/FB card is worth as much as the rest of the set. Pull the Jacksons and a few of the rookies (Thomas, Schilling, Sanders, etc.) and big stars (Griffey, Ryan, Bonds, etc.) and junk the rest.

Groan.... That's what I hate about the mentality of sport card collectors these days. Non-sport card collecting is much better balanced or sensible in that regard.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Groan.... That's what I hate about the mentality of sport card collectors these days. Non-sport card collecting is much better balanced or sensible in that regard.

Oh, please, give me a break; that is such nonsense. It's the same mentality, just cheaper. You ever try to sell base sets from modern cards, like the Skybox Star Trek sets? Or Pokemon? Costs more to ship than they sell for. Pure junk wax. Nonsports collectors chase the insert cards and throw away the rest just like the baseball collectors do, and they contest good cards with the same passion, just at a much lower cost.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Oh, please, give me a break....

Breaks? From me? Come on. You should know better than that.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You ever try to sell base sets from modern cards...? Nonsports collectors chase the insert cards and throw away the rest just like the baseball collectors do....

But you were talking about a few of the cards from the base set being worth nearly as much as or even more than the rest of the base cards combined. You weren't talking about the insert/chase cards:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

For some sets, you can. I bought a large collection of junk wax sets, ended up with maybe 100 cards from it. 1990 Score, for example, the Bo Jackson BB/FB card is worth as much as the rest of the set. Pull the Jacksons and a few of the rookies (Thomas, Schilling, Sanders, etc.) and big stars (Griffey, Ryan, Bonds, etc.) and junk the rest.

There's no equivalent in non-sport sets of one base card being worth as much as all the other cards in the set combined. (Until of course the very recent emergence of foolishness around the Batman "rookie" card from 1966.)

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

It's the same mentality, just cheaper.... Nonsports collectors chase the insert cards and throw away the rest just like the baseball collectors do, and they contest good cards with the same passion, just at a much lower cost.

Granted. But in the real world a "much lower cost" makes all the difference in the world!

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You ever try to sell base sets from modern cards, like the Skybox Star Trek sets? Or Pokemon? Costs more to ship than they sell for. Pure junk wax.

Never. But that's why I said "these days". I'm all about vintage which to me is 35 years old or more. And when it comes to vintage non-sports cards, there is rarely much of a premium accorded to certain cards from any particular set.

[Exhibitman]

Really, rarely any premium:

1932 US Caramel McKinley
Marquis de Lorne
Any SP Wacky Package like Ratz Crackers
1977 Star Wars C3PO "Goldenrod"
1959 Fleer 3 Stooges #1
Any N or T card of George Washington or Thomas Edison
T70 signing of the declaration of independence
1883 Pratt Oil Statue of Liberty trade card
I collect William Sherman's N cards and they are always at a premium to other generals in the same sets.
1979 Warner Bros Prince, Bob Marley sell at 100x what Wire or M or Foghat fetches.
The N76 Lincoln in a PSA 6 went for over $13,000 last week. Any other five-figure sales in that set? Four-figure sales??

I could go on and on listing cards with large relative premiums to others in the same sets.

Your precious nonsports is collected by the same sorts of people who are here: humans. No differences in behavior, just magnitude.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Really, rarely any premium:

Any SP Wacky Package like Ratz Crackers.

Short prints such as the Wacky Packages cards whose distribution was terminated by Topps are an exception for obvious reasons. The Topps Davy Crockett #20A "Ambush/Ambush" is another excellent example.

But you're still going to be able to list only the relatively few non-sports cards which are the exception to the general rule. Meanwhile is there a sports card set that doesn't have certain specific cards that trade at very substantial premiums to the rest?

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Your precious nonsports....

My "precious" non-sports cards? Interesting choice of words given that you're a collector of non-sports cards yourself and you know full well that I collect many sports cards as well as non-sports cards.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Your precious nonsports is collected by the same sorts of people who are here: humans.

Not humans in general. The comparatively small subset of humans who are card collectors.

[obcbeatle]

Is it possible there will be a significant uptick in raw card set collectors pursuing raw vintage Topps cards primarily in VG condition, i.e. less than VGEX condition? Because many set collectors will get priced out with the current flurry of activity in the TPG grading market? And, because A LOT of vintage cards in VGEX or better condition are getting graded, increasing their value, and significantly decreasing the number of VGEX cards in raw condition? Thus vintage raw VG Topps cards with some eye appeal may enjoy a bit of demand increase, kind of like the T206 market? Maybe there will be more NEW set collectors entering the hobby without the financial means to pursue anything better than VG? Because of inflation, shrinking middle-class, etc? Perhaps all/most vintage HOFERs in VG condition will also get graded, further increasing their value, and further pricing many set collectors out of the market? I know this has happened to me for a set I was working on. I had to give up on VGEX, or better. So I pretty much just stopped collecting cards for now. It wasn't fun anymore. And I know I'm not the only one. I understand the hobby and economics are cyclical. But alas