Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

It would sicken you over the years how many times I've heard I don't what was done to the card if it's in a holder with a number grade.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

And if this continues to be the sole goal, I don't see this as a problem going away anytime soon, if ever. Those who are making noise about this on the regular are in the relative minority when you look at who is buying and stockpiling valuable vintage slabs.

One of those things I think that is certainly not ideal, but reality.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

[jchcollins]

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

[sb1]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by sb1

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

I think this is just something we have to deal with then in the post modern hobby. The desire for high grade cards, (even if not truly high grade) in macho numbered holders has proven that it's going to win out thus far over grading integrity in all cases. I see little incentive for that to change if a small group of collectors on BO and N54 are basically the only ones concerned about it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

You would need a whole bunch of those plates for cards, I guess they could be sequentially numbered after the CardMD.

[jchcollins]

So again: Does anyone realistically believe that this problem is ever going away in the card hobby? I don't. Not as long as collectibles continue to be worth real money. The incentives just don't align.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

So again: Does anyone realistically believe that this problem is ever going away in the card hobby? I don't. Not as long as collectibles continue to be worth real money. The incentives just don't align.

Alteration going away? No, it's been here for decades, and the money is way too much for it to go away.

The authentication/grading companies being either nearly useless or complicit?
That could go away, but it seems like the vast majority of the hobby wants to be lied to and taken advantage of.

A friend collects stamps from among other things a small sort of country. Most of their stamps are other countries stamps overprinted with a new name. (sort of a standard thing) The guy who was THE expert a long time ago turned out to also be the guy making fake over prints that surprise! were expertized as good.
Once it was found out, he was kicked out of all philatelic groups he was in, and If I remember it right charged with fraud.
He expertized other stuff too, and now his expertizing mark* is taken as a sign that a fake is likely what you're looking at.

In Europe, it was standard for the expertizer to stamp their name on the back of the stamp. Sometimes in different positions to indicate real or fake flawed or not. They would also do entire sets essentially for the same price as one stamp. I learned this when I asked my friend about a stamp I'd gotten that was a very nice example, and had an expert mark, but I couldn't figure out why. Catalog value was maybe 50 cents, and the catalog listed no valuable varieties.

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

But what if it's both?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

When I saw some of those clearly short cards in the D. Thorn thread on Blowout, I was convinced they had a self-service line.

[HexsHeroes]

This thread both makes me chuckle, and shake my head at the same time. Brings up a bittersweet memory. I was about to purchase my first 1914 Cracker Jack Ty Cobb card from an on-line vendor. The card arrived in a sealed top-load holder. But something did not seem quite right. I normally would break the seal to take a closer look at the card, but doing so would have negated the dealer’s clearly stated return privileges. After examining to the best of my ability, I noted that the card had a wavy shape, like potato chip or washboard. First thought was this card had previously been soaked, and air dried. Would explain the waviness. And lack of any notable staining, which I knew was unusual for a 1914 Cracker Jack card. The dealer had made no mention of any such issues in his listing. I initially considered keeping that card, resoaking, and drying in a press to flatten. But I ended up returning that card. Decided any dealer that would try to pass off a defective card was not worth enabling or supporting further.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But what if it's both?

I’m sure it is, with so many examples it almost has to be both to some extent. But I doubt it’s a 50/50 split. My guess would be 80/20, leaning towards corrupt just based on the large batch groups of altered, graded submittals from BO.