Take Note, Ty Cobb Fans

[marzoumanian]

Saw this in The Athletic (NY Times) today and thought Net54 members would find it most interesting. Tyler Kempner wrote the piece. He is one of the BEST baseball writers around nowadays.

Peace



As MLB changes its records, Josh Gibson, not Ty Cobb, is all-time batting leader


It has been an article of faith for nearly a century, as if chiseled onto a tablet by Abner Doubleday himself: The leading hitter in major league history is, and always will be, Tyrus Raymond Cobb.

But history evolves. We know that Doubleday did not, in fact, invent baseball. And as of Wednesday, Josh Gibson will replace Cobb as the leading hitter in the official records of the game. At .372, Gibson’s career batting average eclipses Cobb’s by six points.




Major League Baseball will announce on Wednesday the results of a newly integrated statistical database covering records from Negro Leagues that operated from 1920 to 1948. The formal acceptance of the data comes three-and-a-half years after MLB officially recognized the Negro Leagues as major leagues in December 2020.

“People will be, I don’t know if upset is the word, but they may be uncomfortable with some Negro League stars now on the leaderboards for career and seasons,” said Larry Lester, an author and longtime Negro Leagues researcher who served on the committee.

“Diehards may not accept the stats, but that’s OK. I welcome the conversations at the bar or the barbershop or the pool hall. That’s why we do what we do.”

Career batting average leaders
Josh Gibson
.372
Ty Cobb
.367
Oscar Charleston
.363
Rogers Hornsby
.358
Jud Wilson
.350
Turkey Stearnes
.348
Ed Delahanty
.346
Buck Leonard
.345
Tris Speaker
.345
Ted Williams
.344
John Thorn, MLB’s official historian, said that with the St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants playing a game at Rickwood Field in Birmingham, Ala., next month, the timing was right to release the committee’s findings. Thorn estimated that about 75 percent of all Negro Leagues box scores have been documented, and that MLB would update the records as more are uncovered.

To some extent, Negro League numbers will always be a work in progress. Barnstorming games, essential as a financial lifeline to Negro League teams, are not included in the statistics.

“For example, the Kansas City Monarchs travel to Chicago, and once they get into town, they play as many games as possible,” Lester said. “So instead of a three-game series, they play five — and on the way there, they might stop in Moline and play the local team to pick up some change.

“Based on players that I’ve interviewed, they say they played almost every day, sometimes two or three games a day and not in the same location. So they were playing probably 150 to 175 games a year, but only 60 to 80 games counted in the league standings.”




Those shorter official seasons, MLB noted in a release announcing the change, naturally lead to some “leaderboard extremes”. But the league verified a 60-game season during the COVID-19 pandemic, and with that as a recent precedent, Thorn said, it made sense to also verify Negro League seasons.

“The irregularity of their league schedules, established in the spring but improvised by the summer, were not of their making but instead were born of MLB’s exclusionary practices,” MLB said in the release.

The committee used the same statistical minimums for Negro League leaders as it does for the American and National Leagues: 3.1 plate appearances or 1 inning pitched per scheduled team game. The scheduled games range from 26 (Negro American League, 1942) to 91 (Negro National League I, 1927).

The new accounting gives Gibson not just the career batting average record, but also the single-season mark at .466 in 1943, followed by Chino Smith’s .451 in 1929. The previous record, Hugh Duffy’s .440 mark for Boston in 1894, drops to third.

Single-season batting average
Josh Gibson
.466 (1943)
Chino Smith
.451 (1929)
Hugh Duffy
.440 (1894)
Oscar Charleston
.434 (1921)
Charlie Blackwell
.432 (1921)
Ross Barnes
.429 (1876)
Oscar Charleston
.427 (1925)
Mule Suttles
.425 (1926)
Willie Keeler
.424 (1897)
Rogers Hornsby
.424 (1924)
At baseball-reference, however, Gibson’s .466 isn’t even listed in bold on his career ledger. That’s because another hitter in Gibson’s league, Tetelo Vargas of the New York Cubans, batted .471, which the website considers the career record.

Vargas is credited with 136 plate appearances that season. But MLB considers that league’s schedule to be 47 games long, so Vargas falls short of MLB’s minimum 146 plate appearances required for recognition as a league leader.

On baseball-reference’s single-season batting average leaderboard, Vargas and Gibson are followed by another .466 hitter — Lyman Bostock Sr., the father of the star outfielder for the Twins and Angels who was murdered after a game in Chicago in 1978.

Bostock Sr.’s .466 mark is recognized by baseball-reference as the top average in 1941 (which is why Ted Williams’ fabled .406 for the Red Sox in 1941 is not listed in italicized type on the site). But MLB does not recognize Bostock Sr.’s average on the new single-season leaderboard, because he did it in just 84 plate appearances.




“Here’s the difference,” said Sean Forman, the president of Sports Reference LLC. “Throughout the Negro League stats, there are games that are missing; maybe we have the score of the game that was played, but we have no box score for it.

“So I’m looking at Bostock in 1941. We have 23 games of records for him, and we have the Birmingham Black Barons (Bostock’s team) with 45 games that season. So Bostock, with 84 plate appearances, would be below the 45 times 3.1 (threshold). The thing is, he’s over 3.1 per game for those games that we have box scores. We use that number as how we set the minimum.

“We have certain reasons for making the choices we did, and MLB has certain reasons for making the choices they did.”


Ty Cobb’s career average has long stood as MLB’s highest mark. (Photo Reproduction by Transcendental Graphics / Getty Images)
Baseball-reference uses Negro League statistics from the Seamheads database, a project that Lester said began with a grant from MLB in 2000. Researchers Gary Ashwill and Kevin Johnson searched exhaustively for verified box scores, and while both are on the committee, it took years for MLB and Seamheads to agree on the implementation of data.

“There were arduous negotiations,” Thorn acknowledged. “And part of the difficulty was not financial — that was almost to one side and agreed upon — it was how the stats would be used and what level of involvement Seamheads might have on a continuing basis. It took a long time to get to agreement, but once we got to agreement, we brought in Retrosheet as an additional statistical partner. And, of course, we had Elias on board already as our official statisticians, the ones responsible for auditing the data.”

Career OPS
Josh Gibson
1.177
Babe Ruth
1.164
Ted Williams
1.116
Lou Gehrig
1.079
Oscar Charleston
1.063
Barry Bonds
1.051
Buck Leonard
1.042
Jimmie Foxx
1.037
Turkey Stearnes
1.033
Mule Suttles
1.031
It took more than two years for those entities to come together. But once they did, it seems, the pace accelerated. Thorn said the committee was careful to rely only on box scores, not merely game accounts. Gibson was reported to have hit four homers in a game in 1938, for example, but with no box score, there’s no way to make all the numbers work.

“If a man hits a home run, he hits it off someone,” Thorn said. “So, absent the double-entry accounting that is required to provide balance to the entire historical record of Major League Baseball, we cannot make exceptions for anecdotal evidence.”

Career ERA
Ed Walsh
1.82
Addie Joss
1.89
Mordecai Brown
2.06
John Ward
2.1
Christy Mathewson
2.13
Rube Waddell
2.16
Walter Johnson
2.17
Dave Brown
2.24
Tommy Bond
2.25
Will White
2.28
Likewise, Thorn said, a game account from 1948 says that Willie Mays homered for Birmingham. But without a box score to verify it, Mays’ career home run total remains at 660 — all with the Giants and Mets.

The records are not full, but they are accurate for what they cover, as far as MLB is concerned. The painstaking research demands it.




“It takes me roughly 30 minutes to input one box score — line by line, number by number, and then I run data integrity checks at the end of the season,” Lester said. “I roughly have about 16,000 box scores in my database, so it took years to perform the task.

“But it’s fun. We welcome the critics, the doubters. But we know the numbers are solid.”

Decades ago, Lester said, people told him the numbers simply did not exist — “that African-Americans were apathetic about recording baseball history,” he said. He is proud to have helped upend that trope, to unearth the numbers that validate the achievements of Oscar Charleston, Bullet Rogan, Turkey Stearnes and others.

The revised records — even certified as official — will not sway everyone. Lester understands that. And for all the meticulous record-keeping, the what-ifs of segregation can never be resolved.

“Critics will say, ‘Well, (Gibson) only played against other Black teams,’” Lester said. “Well, Babe Ruth never hit a home run off a Black pitcher, and Josh Gibson never hit a home run off a white pitcher. So I guess my point is, the amount of melanin or the lack thereof does not indicate the greatness of a ballplayer.”

[Hxcmilkshake]

I'm old but I love the change, long overdue. And I appreciate the thought around it

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Casey2296]

Congrats to Gibson and the other NL players to finally be recognized.
-
Patiently waiting for Ty Cobb prices to come down now.
-

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Congrats to Gibson and the other NL players to finally be recognized.
-
Patiently waiting for Ty Cobb prices to come down now.
-

…and Babe Ruth.

[BigfootIsReal]

Becket, since he's God, just announced Cobb prices to decline by 47% and Ruth 41%

[z28jd]

I can't imagine Gibson would take over the career leader mark, he only has 2,526 plate appearances accounted for to come up with that career average. That's well off would should be the minimum to become an all-time leader. Baseball-Reference updated their stats two years ago and he's not even on their low standards for qualifying (3,000 PAs)

If they would allow the National Association to be among Major League stats, Levi Meyerle would take that top spot with his .492 average in 1871.

This is similar to when I tell people the Pirates career average leader is Jake Stenzel. He's #1 on BR, so you have "proof" that it is true, but how do you compare his .360 average over 1,755 ABs to Paul Waner hitting .340 over 8,429 ABs. You can't use 8,000+ ABs for a team leaderboard, barely anyone would qualify all around baseball, but 1,755 seems way too low.

[campyfan39]

I hate it personally.
The record keeping, competition, schedules etc. were all totally different. Seems no matter what has been done to try to recognize the accomplishments of the Negro Leagues, its not ever enough.

We going to add Japanese league or barnstorming or minor league stats? Dominican leagues?

[anchorednw]

This won't do anything to prices. Especially Cobb, Ruth and all-time greats.

[BeanTown]

My biggest question, how was the competition? We’re teams struggling to find quality teams to play and field? Too bad everyone wasn’t playing since 1869. I know some amazing players came out of the Negro, Japanese, and many South American leagues. All all being honored?

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

Saw this in The Athletic (NY Times) today and thought Net54 members would find it most interesting. Tyler Kempner wrote the piece. He is one of the BEST baseball writers around nowadays.

Peace



As MLB changes its records, Josh Gibson, not Ty Cobb, is all-time batting leader


It has been an article of faith for nearly a century, as if chiseled onto a tablet by Abner Doubleday himself: The leading hitter in major league history is, and always will be, Tyrus Raymond Cobb.

But history evolves. We know that Doubleday did not, in fact, invent baseball. And as of Wednesday, Josh Gibson will replace Cobb as the leading hitter in the official records of the game. At .372, Gibson’s career batting average eclipses Cobb’s by six points.




Major League Baseball will announce on Wednesday the results of a newly integrated statistical database covering records from Negro Leagues that operated from 1920 to 1948. The formal acceptance of the data comes three-and-a-half years after MLB officially recognized the Negro Leagues as major leagues in December 2020.

“People will be, I don’t know if upset is the word, but they may be uncomfortable with some Negro League stars now on the leaderboards for career and seasons,” said Larry Lester, an author and longtime Negro Leagues researcher who served on the committee.

“Diehards may not accept the stats, but that’s OK. I welcome the conversations at the bar or the barbershop or the pool hall. That’s why we do what we do.”

Career batting average leaders
Josh Gibson
.372
Ty Cobb
.367
Oscar Charleston
.363
Rogers Hornsby
.358
Jud Wilson
.350
Turkey Stearnes
.348
Ed Delahanty
.346
Buck Leonard
.345
Tris Speaker
.345
Ted Williams
.344
John Thorn, MLB’s official historian, said that with the St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants playing a game at Rickwood Field in Birmingham, Ala., next month, the timing was right to release the committee’s findings. Thorn estimated that about 75 percent of all Negro Leagues box scores have been documented, and that MLB would update the records as more are uncovered.

To some extent, Negro League numbers will always be a work in progress. Barnstorming games, essential as a financial lifeline to Negro League teams, are not included in the statistics.

“For example, the Kansas City Monarchs travel to Chicago, and once they get into town, they play as many games as possible,” Lester said. “So instead of a three-game series, they play five — and on the way there, they might stop in Moline and play the local team to pick up some change.

“Based on players that I’ve interviewed, they say they played almost every day, sometimes two or three games a day and not in the same location. So they were playing probably 150 to 175 games a year, but only 60 to 80 games counted in the league standings.”




Those shorter official seasons, MLB noted in a release announcing the change, naturally lead to some “leaderboard extremes”. But the league verified a 60-game season during the COVID-19 pandemic, and with that as a recent precedent, Thorn said, it made sense to also verify Negro League seasons.

“The irregularity of their league schedules, established in the spring but improvised by the summer, were not of their making but instead were born of MLB’s exclusionary practices,” MLB said in the release.

The committee used the same statistical minimums for Negro League leaders as it does for the American and National Leagues: 3.1 plate appearances or 1 inning pitched per scheduled team game. The scheduled games range from 26 (Negro American League, 1942) to 91 (Negro National League I, 1927).

The new accounting gives Gibson not just the career batting average record, but also the single-season mark at .466 in 1943, followed by Chino Smith’s .451 in 1929. The previous record, Hugh Duffy’s .440 mark for Boston in 1894, drops to third.

Single-season batting average
Josh Gibson
.466 (1943)
Chino Smith
.451 (1929)
Hugh Duffy
.440 (1894)
Oscar Charleston
.434 (1921)
Charlie Blackwell
.432 (1921)
Ross Barnes
.429 (1876)
Oscar Charleston
.427 (1925)
Mule Suttles
.425 (1926)
Willie Keeler
.424 (1897)
Rogers Hornsby
.424 (1924)
At baseball-reference, however, Gibson’s .466 isn’t even listed in bold on his career ledger. That’s because another hitter in Gibson’s league, Tetelo Vargas of the New York Cubans, batted .471, which the website considers the career record.

Vargas is credited with 136 plate appearances that season. But MLB considers that league’s schedule to be 47 games long, so Vargas falls short of MLB’s minimum 146 plate appearances required for recognition as a league leader.

On baseball-reference’s single-season batting average leaderboard, Vargas and Gibson are followed by another .466 hitter — Lyman Bostock Sr., the father of the star outfielder for the Twins and Angels who was murdered after a game in Chicago in 1978.

Bostock Sr.’s .466 mark is recognized by baseball-reference as the top average in 1941 (which is why Ted Williams’ fabled .406 for the Red Sox in 1941 is not listed in italicized type on the site). But MLB does not recognize Bostock Sr.’s average on the new single-season leaderboard, because he did it in just 84 plate appearances.




“Here’s the difference,” said Sean Forman, the president of Sports Reference LLC. “Throughout the Negro League stats, there are games that are missing; maybe we have the score of the game that was played, but we have no box score for it.

“So I’m looking at Bostock in 1941. We have 23 games of records for him, and we have the Birmingham Black Barons (Bostock’s team) with 45 games that season. So Bostock, with 84 plate appearances, would be below the 45 times 3.1 (threshold). The thing is, he’s over 3.1 per game for those games that we have box scores. We use that number as how we set the minimum.

“We have certain reasons for making the choices we did, and MLB has certain reasons for making the choices they did.”


Ty Cobb’s career average has long stood as MLB’s highest mark. (Photo Reproduction by Transcendental Graphics / Getty Images)
Baseball-reference uses Negro League statistics from the Seamheads database, a project that Lester said began with a grant from MLB in 2000. Researchers Gary Ashwill and Kevin Johnson searched exhaustively for verified box scores, and while both are on the committee, it took years for MLB and Seamheads to agree on the implementation of data.

“There were arduous negotiations,” Thorn acknowledged. “And part of the difficulty was not financial — that was almost to one side and agreed upon — it was how the stats would be used and what level of involvement Seamheads might have on a continuing basis. It took a long time to get to agreement, but once we got to agreement, we brought in Retrosheet as an additional statistical partner. And, of course, we had Elias on board already as our official statisticians, the ones responsible for auditing the data.”

Career OPS
Josh Gibson
1.177
Babe Ruth
1.164
Ted Williams
1.116
Lou Gehrig
1.079
Oscar Charleston
1.063
Barry Bonds
1.051
Buck Leonard
1.042
Jimmie Foxx
1.037
Turkey Stearnes
1.033
Mule Suttles
1.031
It took more than two years for those entities to come together. But once they did, it seems, the pace accelerated. Thorn said the committee was careful to rely only on box scores, not merely game accounts. Gibson was reported to have hit four homers in a game in 1938, for example, but with no box score, there’s no way to make all the numbers work.

“If a man hits a home run, he hits it off someone,” Thorn said. “So, absent the double-entry accounting that is required to provide balance to the entire historical record of Major League Baseball, we cannot make exceptions for anecdotal evidence.”

Career ERA
Ed Walsh
1.82
Addie Joss
1.89
Mordecai Brown
2.06
John Ward
2.1
Christy Mathewson
2.13
Rube Waddell
2.16
Walter Johnson
2.17
Dave Brown
2.24
Tommy Bond
2.25
Will White
2.28
Likewise, Thorn said, a game account from 1948 says that Willie Mays homered for Birmingham. But without a box score to verify it, Mays’ career home run total remains at 660 — all with the Giants and Mets.

The records are not full, but they are accurate for what they cover, as far as MLB is concerned. The painstaking research demands it.




“It takes me roughly 30 minutes to input one box score — line by line, number by number, and then I run data integrity checks at the end of the season,” Lester said. “I roughly have about 16,000 box scores in my database, so it took years to perform the task.

“But it’s fun. We welcome the critics, the doubters. But we know the numbers are solid.”

Decades ago, Lester said, people told him the numbers simply did not exist — “that African-Americans were apathetic about recording baseball history,” he said. He is proud to have helped upend that trope, to unearth the numbers that validate the achievements of Oscar Charleston, Bullet Rogan, Turkey Stearnes and others.

The revised records — even certified as official — will not sway everyone. Lester understands that. And for all the meticulous record-keeping, the what-ifs of segregation can never be resolved.

“Critics will say, ‘Well, (Gibson) only played against other Black teams,’” Lester said. “Well, Babe Ruth never hit a home run off a Black pitcher, and Josh Gibson never hit a home run off a white pitcher. So I guess my point is, the amount of melanin or the lack thereof does not indicate the greatness of a ballplayer.”

Josh Gibson is said to have hit over 800 career home runs. Don't they have the stats for that as well?

I have read multiple books about the Negro Leagues and their stars. but the fact is that the Negro Leagues are not and never have been Major League Baseball. I know they had a high caliber of play and players and teams which may have even been on par with the MLB players and teams of their day. However, I have never liked the idea of just grandfathering them and integrating their stats as though they were part of MLB history. Why not just keep them separate and have a separate Hall of Fame and everything else for them? Because of political correctness, that's why. The powers in MLB have simply decided that keeping the two leagues separate is somehow akin to modern-day segregation. Thus, the findings of that committee, is their method of issuing official reparations for the sin of having a color barrier in place for around 75 years.

[brunswickreeves]

Thrilled for many reasons, including that the position of Catcher will finally have representation in a top 10 all time greatest category. Typically don’t see a player who played that (on such lists like baseball almanac) until Jimmie Foxx.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Josh Gibson is said to have hit over 800 career home runs. Don't they have the stats for that as well?

I have read multiple books about the Negro Leagues and their stars. but the fact is that the Negro Leagues are not and never have been Major League Baseball. I know they had a high caliber of play and players and teams which may have even been on par with the MLB players and teams of their day. However, I have never liked the idea of just grandfathering them and integrating their stats as though they were part of MLB history. Why not just keep them separate and have a separate Hall of Fame and everything else for them? Because of political correctness, that's why. The powers in MLB have simply decided that keeping the two leagues separate is somehow akin to modern-day segregation. Thus, the findings of that committee, is their method of issuing official reparations for the sin of having a color barrier in place for around 75 years.

Gibson has 166 homers accounted for in Negro League games. The actual number is slightly higher because they are missing stats for some games. The "800" number you hear for him includes exhibition games in season, as well as homers hit on barnstorming tours. The problem with quoting that number seriously is that it is likely he was seeing 75 MPH fastballs down the middle.

When Babe Ruth played those same type of games, the opposing team knew what the fans wanted to see. Even the writers covering the game would talk about it. The players also knew that Ruth hitting homers makes them more money. If you could find all of Ruth's exhibition/barnstorming games and total them, he would probably have a 2.000 slugging percentage. You can safely assume, unless they were very poor businessmen, that Gibson was getting the same exact treatment. Paige was the big draw for pitchers, so he would pitch 2-3 innings each game instead of going nine innings every third game. Gibson was the big draw for hitters, so the fans wanted to see him hit dingers. He was getting the same pitches Ruth saw to help pad those numbers for the crowd enjoyment.

Gibson probably hit close to 800 homers give or take, but around 75% of them wouldn't be included in actual stats because they weren't league games.

[cgjackson222]

It perhaps should be noted that if you look on BaseballReference.com that Ty Cobb is still the career Batting Average leader. This is because Baseball Reference has different minimum standards than Major League Baseball, and Josh Gibson's 2,526 Played Appearances does not meet their 3,000 minimum PA threshold.

As for the argument that the Negro Leagues were not Major Leagues, you may wish to consult the collection of essays titled "The Negro Leagues are Major Leagues" by Baseball Reference and SABR. It can be found online in its entirety here: https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/

The essays explain how there are 7 Negro Leagues that have been deemed on par with the white MLB and therefore stats are considered only from those 7 Leagues.

As the essays detail, "Between 1866 and 1948, top-flight African American clubs played over 7,000 games with White semi-pro, college, minor league, and major league teams and beat them nearly 65 percent of the time....From the first year of the American League in 1900 through the last year of the second Negro National League in 1948, African American teams posted a record of 316-283-21 (.527) against White major league clubs and big-league All-Star aggregations. Against intact National, American, and Federal League teams, black squads posted a record of 47-60-8 (.443) However, from the inception of the Negro National League in 1920 through 1924, African American teams went 29-31-2 (.484) in head-to-head competition. Because the White mainstream press was often reluctant to print Black clubs’ successes, the Negro Leaguers’ overall tally is likely far better than what was recorded."

"n 1922, responding to the Black teams’ continued success against American and National League squads, Commissioner of Baseball Kenesaw Mountain Landis forbade big leaguers from appearing as under their team names or wearing their own uniforms, and insisted that they advertise themselves as All-Star teams, with only three individual teammates allowed to play together at any one time. Between 1900 and 1948, Black clubs defeated the best White batters, pitchers, and teams they were allowed to play nearly 55 percent of the time. The All-Star squads included in this tally were composed of five or more players with big league experience (including the starting pitcher) and at least three players who had appeared in the majors that particular season. The number of big leaguers involved in many of these games was actually higher as the major leaguers often resorted to the use of aliases to avoid detection. As for the farfetched notion that the big leaguers were not giving their all, it should be noted that between 1900 and 1948, White major league squads racked up a record of 2640-897-71 (.742) against minor league, semi-pro, college and military teams—Only the Negro Leaguers had their number"

"While Negro League teams more than held their own while playing major league squads, they absolutely dominated bush leaguers. From the turn of the twentieth century through 1948, Blackball clubs played well over 1400 games with minor league teams and All-Star outfits, beating them nearly 60 percent of the time."

[Seven]

I have zero issue with recognizing the Negro League stats, as an avid fan of the various leagues before integration I think it's very important to recognize the history and the roll that these men played into getting the game integrated. There were some supremely talented players in that league. Charleston, Leonard, Gibson, Paige, Stearnes, etc I can go on and on.

All that being said though. It's a little disingenuous and it kind of feels like we're whitewashing history. It's important to recognize that yes it was equivalent to the major leagues in terms of talent level. It's also equally important to recognize that these players were put into this situation because of the racial attitudes of commissioner Kennesaw Mountain Landis. Separate Leaderboards encourages more of a discussion. We can discuss why they are separate. the racial climate of the sport back then and the struggles that so many of these men had to go through to become recognized.

Combining the leaderboard, in my opinion at least, kind of takes away from that. I think it's pandering at this point. Because the average Joe that's not interested in this history will just see Gibson's name up there and just accept that he's the All Time Leader. Seeing the men on separate leaderboards, would encourage more discussion and maybe encourage people to look into why the leagues were separated and what these men had to go though.

I might be doing a poor job of wording this, but I hope people understand what I am saying.

[ALBB]

I dont like it

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Seven

I have zero issue with recognizing the Negro League stats, as an avid fan of the various leagues before integration I think it's very important to recognize the history and the roll that these men played into getting the game integrated. There were some supremely talented players in that league. Charleston, Leonard, Gibson, Paige, Stearnes, etc I can go on and on.

All that being said though. It's a little disingenuous and it kind of feels like we're whitewashing history. It's important to recognize that yes it was equivalent to the major leagues in terms of talent level. It's also equally important to recognize that these players were put into this situation because of the racial attitudes of commissioner Kennesaw Mountain Landis. Separate Leaderboards encourages more of a discussion. We can discuss why they are separate. the racial climate of the sport back then and the struggles that so many of these men had to go through to become recognized.

Combining the leaderboard, in my opinion at least, kind of takes away from that. I think it's pandering at this point. Because the average Joe that's not interested in this history will just see Gibson's name up there and just accept that he's the All Time Leader. Seeing the men on separate leaderboards, would encourage more discussion and maybe encourage people to look into why the leagues were separated and what these men had to go though.

I might be doing a poor job of wording this, but I hope people understand what I am saying.

I see your point, and I think it is a good point. I think that some people thought that unless Major Negro League data was integrated with MLB data, that little of that NL data would ever have been seen. I think it was about giving recognition, and you do that by putting the data in the same place where everyone is looking for it. Similarly, if you kept Negro Leaguers out of Cooperstown, they would have a lot less exposure.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Josh Gibson is said to have hit over 800 career home runs. Don't they have the stats for that as well?

I have read multiple books about the Negro Leagues and their stars. but the fact is that the Negro Leagues are not and never have been Major League Baseball. I know they had a high caliber of play and players and teams which may have even been on par with the MLB players and teams of their day. However, I have never liked the idea of just grandfathering them and integrating their stats as though they were part of MLB history. Why not just keep them separate and have a separate Hall of Fame and everything else for them? Because of political correctness, that's why. The powers in MLB have simply decided that keeping the two leagues separate is somehow akin to modern-day segregation. Thus, the findings of that committee, is their method of issuing official reparations for the sin of having a color barrier in place for around 75 years.

Yikes! Imagine owning this viewpoint in 2024... Oof

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yikes! Imagine owning this viewpoint in 2024... Oof

It could have been worse, no? He could have suggested that we have two MLB Hall of Fames, one for the whites and one for the blacks and have their stats separated too.

[packs]

Satchel Paige was inducted into the HOF in 1971. He played 5 seasons in the American League and pitched in one game in 1965.

He would not be eligible for the MLB HOF under the 10 season rule, but was elected anyway. MLB has been recognizing the significance of the Negro League and it's players since. Keeping the MLB and the Negro Leagues separate hasn't existed since then either. It would be impossible for Paige to get into the MLB HOF if that was the attitude.

[Snowman]

I've mentioned this before, but it's probably worth noting here that I'm a statistician, since we're having a discussion about statistics. What I find most ironic about this conversation is that seemingly everyone wanting to overlook or downplay the accomplishments of the negro league players are somehow also operating under the assumption/delusion that the early MLB stars were playing in leagues that were every bit as competitive as the game is today or even during the golden era.

I've got news for you. If Josh Gibson's stats (or any other NL player's) shouldn't count because the overall skill level was lower, then Ty Cobb's stats shouldn't count either. If you think Ty Cobb would have put up numbers even remotely similar in the post war era, you're delusional.

That said, from a statistical theory viewpoint, there are very good reasons that minimum plate appearance rules are in place. Baseball statistics are extremely volatile and take a very long time to converge to represent a player's true skill level. So much so that most years in the MLB the player who wins the batting title usually wasn't the best hitter that season but rather was the luckiest of the 10 or so best hitters. Even a full season with 600 AB still has a significant amount of luck involved. And if you were to take 185 plate appearance samples from every player throughout history, you'd see some remarkable stats. Probably even multiple players hitting over 0.500 in those spans.

But if we're going to include deadball era stats with modern stats, then it's hard to argue that we shouldn't include NL stats as well. Everyone knows the games and circumstances were different. We don't place an asterisk next to Ty Cobb's name. Why place one next to Gibson's? People aren't stupid. They know Gibson wouldn't hit 0.450+ in today's game. And they also know Cobb wouldn't hit 0.400 either. But that doesn't take away from what they did. They all deserve their flowers. At least now they have a vase to put them in.

[bandrus1]

Lotta opinions in here but I'll post a fact this thread has proven

Speaker and Hornsby are undervalued

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by bandrus1

Lotta opinions in here but I'll post a fact this thread has proven

Speaker and Hornsby are undervalued

Now add Ty Cobb to the list (maybe even Ruth in another decade).
I’m really mad that Aaron didn’t retake being the all-time HR in this “pick and choose box scores” approach. Aaron is still 2 dingers shy.

[Swadewade51]

So many arguments questioning the talent of the negro leagues when the white Major League record holders never faced a seasons worth of pitching from Josh Donaldson, Satchel Paige, Bill Foster, etc....

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[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

So many arguments questioning the talent of the negro leagues when the white Major League record holders never faced a seasons worth of pitching from Josh Donaldson, Satchel Paige, Bill Foster, etc....

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Totally agree....

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

So many arguments questioning the talent of the negro leagues when the white Major League record holders never faced a seasons worth of pitching from Josh Donaldson, Satchel Paige, Bill Foster, etc....

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That's why the stats should be separate.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Moonlight Graham

That's why the stats should be separate.

Then all time leaders should only be 1947 onwards

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[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

So many arguments questioning the talent of the negro leagues when the white Major League record holders never faced a seasons worth of pitching from Josh Donaldson, Satchel Paige, Bill Foster, etc....

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I think this misses the point a bit. From what I have read, the star talent in the Negro Leagues may have even surpassed that of the MLB talent of that time, and barnstorming stats show that Negro League teams may have won 2 of every 3 games played against MLB teams.

The talent pool really isn't the point at all. It's simply that the Negro League teams and the MLB teams were two separate leagues, so there isn't any compelling reason to combine their stats except for the sake of wokeness and reparations.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I think this misses the point a bit. From what I have read, the star talent in the Negro Leagues may have even surpassed that of the MLB talent of that time, and barnstorming stats show that Negro League teams may have won 2 of every 3 games played against MLB teams.

The talent pool really isn't the point at all. It's simply that the Negro League teams and the MLB teams were two separate leagues, so there isn't any compelling reason to combine their stats except for the sake of wokeness and reparations.

Pretty sure it's as simple as righting a wrong and giving those players the recognition they deserve on lists that encompass the greats of our sports. Twist it to be about "wokeness" all you want. Pretty sure we won't ever agree so let's not engage further.

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[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

Pretty sure it's as simple as righting a wrong and giving those players the recognition they deserve on lists that encompass the greats of our sports. Twist it to be about "wokeness" all you want. Pretty sure we won't ever agree so let's not engage further.

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I guess there's always a chance that the extreme left takes it too far and demands trophys and awards back from the families in order to redistribute them.

[whitehse]

Perhaps MLB got what they wanted....for fans to debate this issue and bring back the spotlight to stats and players who for the most part are long gone and not frequently talked about. We are talking about a time when baseball was still a classically perfect game played by people of all races, religions and all ages. At the same time it was no where near the perfect game as it kept a large part of the population away based solely on their skin color. Baseball NEEDS this discussion and there is no doubt debates such as the one we see here on these boards are happening everywhere.

I guess I look at the inclusion of the stats from the Negro leagues as more of a comparison and celebration of baseball during a complicated time in our history and not a rewriting of history. In my opinion there really is no right or wrong here and the best of the best deserve to be recognized regardless if their stardom was gained through the Negro leagues or MLB itself.

After all...in 100 years will any of this really matter anyway?

Somewhere I see in my minds eye ol' Buck O'Neil smiling proudly.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I guess there's always a chance that the extreme left takes it too far and demands trophys and awards back from the families in order to redistribute them.

Seems like an unproductive comment. Missing the analogy here. Maybe you can give one.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Seems like an unproductive comment. Missing the analogy here. Maybe you can give one.

Really? Take a look around you, notice how extremists take something honorable like the inclusion of NL players into ML record books for example, and push things to the point of dividing people instead of uniting people. It hasn't happened in this particular case but I can certainly see some knucklehead group demanding the trophys back since their family member no longer holds the record.

[Topnotchsy]

Thoughts:

• The question of the level of play in the Negro Leagues has been researched extensively. "Outsider Baseball" is one book that covers the topic. It seems quite safe to accept that the Negro Leagues were on par with the AL/NL or quite close.
• There are many sources of data to support this. Looking at the black players who integrated the league and their success is one of them. (It also points to the strength of the hitting but possible deficiency in the pitching). Throw in barnstorming games and other sources and the picture is pretty strong. The only places that might have had similar level of play were Puerto Rico and Cuba at times. (My view, I don't recall what the book says about those leagues.)
• The Major Leagues was already a conglomeration of different leagues, so adding a few more that did not play each other is not outside of what already existed. The National (which launched in 1876), the American (1901), the American Association (1882-1891), Union Association (1884), Players' League (1890) and Federal League (1914-1915). Throw in the fact that the AL and NL were entirely separate until the World Series. Players like Ernie Banks literally never played a game against a team in the American League.
• The move brings a lot more attention to the Negro Leagues and their players and for that alone this move might be worthwhile.
• I struggle to understand the logic of combining the stats. The differences between the leagues as far as games played etc is enormous even if the players were of similar caliber. I wonder whether having Josh Gibson first on some rate stats while having very pedestrian counting totals is a bigger gain or loss.
• Because of the point above, even as an avid Negro League fan and someone who believes that many more black players from before integration deserve to be enshrined in Cooperstown, I don't love the move which I think confuses the narratives by erasing the differences between them.

[calvindog]

Jeff, that’s well stated.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Thoughts:
The question of the level of play in the Negro Leagues has been researched extensively. "Outsider Baseball" is one book that covers the topic. It seems quite safe to accept that the Negro Leagues were on par with the AL/NL or quite close.[*]There are many sources of data to support this. Looking at the black players who integrated the league and their success is one of them. (It also points to the strength of the hitting but possible deficiency in the pitching). Throw in barnstorming games and other sources and the picture is pretty strong. The only places that might have had similar level of play were Puerto Rico and Cuba at times. (My view, I don't recall what the book says about those leagues.)[*]

It seems to me that to say that the Negro Leagues (and certainly Puerto Rico and Cuban teams) were on a par with the white leagues ignores the tremendous differential in the demographic pools they were drawn from. I just don't understand how this is possible when the population was 90% white and less than 10% black, unless you want to take it a step much further to say that blacks were inherently or genetically much better ball players. I have no doubt that there were many terrific black players who would have excelled in the majors as they did when integration came, or that a black all-star team at any time probably could have beaten the white champions, but those leagues on a par generally speaking, I don't think so. It is undoubtedly also true that Josh Gibson and many others from the NL would hold MLB records today if they had been allowed to compete equally among white players, but I don't see how you can invent those records from what they did do in their separate leagues. I say keep the histories separate, as they were in their time, and don't try to pretend that it was all one big happy family playing together. It wasn't, it will forever be a stain on baseball that it wasn't, and no amount of imaginary numbers juggling will make that fact any prettier.