Take Note, Ty Cobb Fans

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Josh Gibson is said to have hit over 800 career home runs. Don't they have the stats for that as well?

I have read multiple books about the Negro Leagues and their stars. but the fact is that the Negro Leagues are not and never have been Major League Baseball. I know they had a high caliber of play and players and teams which may have even been on par with the MLB players and teams of their day. However, I have never liked the idea of just grandfathering them and integrating their stats as though they were part of MLB history. Why not just keep them separate and have a separate Hall of Fame and everything else for them? Because of political correctness, that's why. The powers in MLB have simply decided that keeping the two leagues separate is somehow akin to modern-day segregation. Thus, the findings of that committee, is their method of issuing official reparations for the sin of having a color barrier in place for around 75 years.

Yikes! Imagine owning this viewpoint in 2024... Oof

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yikes! Imagine owning this viewpoint in 2024... Oof

It could have been worse, no? He could have suggested that we have two MLB Hall of Fames, one for the whites and one for the blacks and have their stats separated too.

[packs]

Satchel Paige was inducted into the HOF in 1971. He played 5 seasons in the American League and pitched in one game in 1965.

He would not be eligible for the MLB HOF under the 10 season rule, but was elected anyway. MLB has been recognizing the significance of the Negro League and it's players since. Keeping the MLB and the Negro Leagues separate hasn't existed since then either. It would be impossible for Paige to get into the MLB HOF if that was the attitude.

[Snowman]

I've mentioned this before, but it's probably worth noting here that I'm a statistician, since we're having a discussion about statistics. What I find most ironic about this conversation is that seemingly everyone wanting to overlook or downplay the accomplishments of the negro league players are somehow also operating under the assumption/delusion that the early MLB stars were playing in leagues that were every bit as competitive as the game is today or even during the golden era.

I've got news for you. If Josh Gibson's stats (or any other NL player's) shouldn't count because the overall skill level was lower, then Ty Cobb's stats shouldn't count either. If you think Ty Cobb would have put up numbers even remotely similar in the post war era, you're delusional.

That said, from a statistical theory viewpoint, there are very good reasons that minimum plate appearance rules are in place. Baseball statistics are extremely volatile and take a very long time to converge to represent a player's true skill level. So much so that most years in the MLB the player who wins the batting title usually wasn't the best hitter that season but rather was the luckiest of the 10 or so best hitters. Even a full season with 600 AB still has a significant amount of luck involved. And if you were to take 185 plate appearance samples from every player throughout history, you'd see some remarkable stats. Probably even multiple players hitting over 0.500 in those spans.

But if we're going to include deadball era stats with modern stats, then it's hard to argue that we shouldn't include NL stats as well. Everyone knows the games and circumstances were different. We don't place an asterisk next to Ty Cobb's name. Why place one next to Gibson's? People aren't stupid. They know Gibson wouldn't hit 0.450+ in today's game. And they also know Cobb wouldn't hit 0.400 either. But that doesn't take away from what they did. They all deserve their flowers. At least now they have a vase to put them in.

[bandrus1]

Lotta opinions in here but I'll post a fact this thread has proven

Speaker and Hornsby are undervalued

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by bandrus1

Lotta opinions in here but I'll post a fact this thread has proven

Speaker and Hornsby are undervalued

Now add Ty Cobb to the list (maybe even Ruth in another decade).
I’m really mad that Aaron didn’t retake being the all-time HR in this “pick and choose box scores” approach. Aaron is still 2 dingers shy.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

Now add Ty Cobb to the list (maybe even Ruth in another decade).
I’m really mad that Aaron didn’t retake being the all-time HR in this “pick and choose box scores” approach. Aaron is still 2 dingers shy.

Mlb.com still shows Aaron with 755 home runs. Aaron played for the Indianapolis Clowns in 1952, but the stats being included are only up through 1948 so his home run total won't be changing.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sport...s/73892841007/

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Mlb.com still shows Aaron with 755 home runs. Aaron played for the Indianapolis Clowns in 1952, but the stats being included are only up through 1948 so his home run total won't be changing.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sport...s/73892841007/

Amazing how this committee had the ability to pick & choose which boxscores & years to use.