PWCC Huigens Now Has a Criminal Defense Attorney

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

A scummy tabloid? Ok, would you like to read it from another source?

https://www.barstoolsports.com/barst...-bernie-madoff

What exactly are you saying, Peter? That these text exchanges never took place? Read the linked article. It gives even more detail about the texts.

All that left me with are questions.

Like why is someone who swiped millions from her business staying in a $99 hotel room and ordering cheap pizza?

And just where the _ can you find a $99 hotel room?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would guess all PSA graders and former graders and other employees have NDAs. That said, I would imagine that if there has been anything untoward going on over the years, a grader blowing the whistle could be a major area of vulnerability. As I've said, at this point, nothing would surprise me.

That makes me curious... could an ex PSA employee with an NDA successfully use that as an excuse to not answer questions from the FBI?

Or would that be more of a 5th amendment thing?

I'm thinking that wouldn't be taken well at all...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.

Just catching up on the latest. I missed the statement by Orlando and Sloan. What was said, or better yet, is there a link or a thread where this information was made public?

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1308245

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=Sloan

[Jeffrompa]

Except by PSA and PWCC

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.actionnetwork.com/genera...tor-convention

[Bicem]

Solid article that even non-hobby people can understand.

[BeanTown]

Is there a place to see the other 50 cards they manipulated the prices along with the dates?

Taken from the article:
Take, for example, a card in the top 100 for PWCC, the 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente card. Clemente is a good example because he is no longer alive, meaning there’s nothing that can really change the perception of his card. Here are the prices reported as sold for a PSA 8 Clemente Rookie:

January 2015 — $29,127
October 2015 — $35,864
May 2016 — $131,450
July 2016 — $150,391
November 2016 — $38,500
November 2018 — $26,400
Why did the price crater in four months in 2016? Because the market-fixers moved on to another card.

This has been done with more than 50 vintage cards (though some of the rises and falls are not as dramatic as the Clemente card) but these cards were in the PWCC index because they were among the most valuable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Is there a place to see the other 50 cards they manipulated the prices along with the dates?

Taken from the article:
Take, for example, a card in the top 100 for PWCC, the 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente card. Clemente is a good example because he is no longer alive, meaning there’s nothing that can really change the perception of his card. Here are the prices reported as sold for a PSA 8 Clemente Rookie:

January 2015 — $29,127
October 2015 — $35,864
May 2016 — $131,450
July 2016 — $150,391
November 2016 — $38,500
November 2018 — $26,400
Why did the price crater in four months in 2016? Because the market-fixers moved on to another card.

This has been done with more than 50 vintage cards (though some of the rises and falls are not as dramatic as the Clemente card) but these cards were in the PWCC index because they were among the most valuable.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271577

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My understanding is that unlike in the securities area where the government has specific authority to seek relief barring people from the securities industry or barring individuals who commit securities fraud from serving as officers of publicly traded companies, the government does not have similar authority in other lines of business. It would have to be part of a plea bargain, and seems unlikely here.

It's going to boil down to Calvindog suing PSA anyway so I'll just wait for that by the end of the year. I guaran f en tee it.

A nice waste of money for all parties involved.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

A nice waste of money for all parties involved.

Naw, the lawyers will make out nicely.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

It's going to boil down to Calvindog suing PSA anyway so I'll just wait for that by the end of the year. I guaran f en tee it.

A nice waste of money for all parties involved.

Chuck, if it’s not your money why would you care?

[Rickyy]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

To me the bigger question lies with how are these cards getting slabbed by TPG’s? Are they just incompetent, paid off, or what? Why isn’t every card scanned when graded so when it comes back in altered it quickly shows up as previously graded? What responsibility do TPG’s have to honor their guarantees? If they are not and instead are giving people the runaround is someone going to legally challenge them? Is that all in the works? Are attorneys already engaged and preparing lawsuits?

All I know is it’s probably unrealistic to expect that 100% of altered cards are going to get caught by the TPG’s but aren’t we at a point where obviously altered cards are getting through with no issue. Can Brent help shed light on how that is happening? Does he have information that it’s anything other than incompetence? I have no idea but I’d sure like to find out.

And even if it is just incompetence isn’t it time TPG’s shouldn’t be able to hide behind self serving statements? Is someone going to hold them accountable? If there are better mechanisms in place to detect fraud does it ultimately matter if a few cards get through? Does Macy’s know a couple percentage of their sales is going to be lost to various theft? Does that mean that they still don’t do everything they can to stop it? Are TPG’s?

Feel free to shoot away.

[QUOTE=CuriousGeorge;1902336]


Aside from the PWCC fiasco, the integrity of the TPG's was already in question especially when the info came out about the famous Wagner being trimmed...but the grade was never changed.....and yet they continue to survive...

Ricky Y

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Chuck, if it’s not your money why would you care?

Steven,

I have bought many high end cards from your brother over the years, I know this must be a tough time for both of you guys. But in the midst of this thread, there really hasn't been any clarification on Jeff's part pertaining what I'm about to ask.... If he is indeed looking to rectify a problem for collectors, isn't he in fact violating client privilege, or is Huigens pleading the fifth?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by steve B

Yep, when customers are slime, taking their money is the best possible comeback. Except maybe sending them to the shop up the street so they can be the competitions problem.

Man's got a right to do his job; we need criminal defense attorneys to put the government to the test. I could not do it but that's why I keep my practice far away from criminal defense. Family law too; that's some nasty, nasty stuff.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Steven,

I have bought many high end cards from your brother over the years, I know this must be a tough time for both of you guys. But in the midst of this thread, there really hasn't been any clarification on Jeff's part pertaining what I'm about to ask.... If he is indeed looking to rectify a problem for collectors, isn't he in fact violating client privilege, or is Huigens pleading the fifth?

A tough time for us? Why? Actually things couldn’t be better for both of us so not sure what you mean by that?

As for Jeff and Brent and anything else hobby related, I’m not an attorney so not sure how attorney/client privilege plays into any of this or what Brent is planning on doing. For that you’re probably better off consulting with David James as he seems to think he has a better grasp of these topics. Unless of course he’s busy searching for El Chapo’s billions. What I do know though, is after replaying yesterday’s events my most poignant post yet could be the one about self fulfilling prophecy. Why anyone would go out of their way to assist many of you is probably a better question for you to ask?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1308245

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=Sloan

Thank you for posting those links.

Orlando's statements are utterly mind boggling while Sloan's are still significantly unacceptable. PSA has been aware of the rampant card doctoring for a decade or more and it's indisputably clear that they put forth no effort at all to improve their service quality. Now Orlando in affect dismisses the fraud victims as irrational malcontents.

Does any remember "Pro Grading"? If memory serves me correct, they were deemed as so incompetent for slabbing cards, and were regarded as a "black hole" for trimmed cards. Ebay at one point banned the sale of Pro-graded cards because so many were deemed as bad. In my opinion, PSA deserves the same fate and if Ebay does ban PSA graded cards, then we'll see how much arrogant diatribe Orlando spews out at the public when CU's stock plummets.

[Mark17]

It wasn't very long ago that Leon had a bunch of garbage unfairly thrown at him for not pulling down that PWCC banner quite fast enough..... He didn't ever condone what PWCC did (and was doing,) he didn't excuse it, he didn't stifle criticism of it, and he certainly didn't defend it.

So I'm wondering if the people who had the pitchforks out then are more forgiving when someone (for money) steps up to defend PWCC now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Man's got a right to do his job; we need criminal defense attorneys to put the government to the test. I could not do it but that's why I keep my practice far away from criminal defense. Family law too; that's some nasty, nasty stuff.

Family law, tell me about it. When I was just out of law school my firm was less corporate than it became and we did some of that and it was ugly as hell. In one case I argued and won some motion requiring the husband to pay for something and he starts cursing at me and insulting my abilities right in the courtroom with the judge still on the bench for the next matter, total circus.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It wasn't very long ago that Leon had a bunch of garbage unfairly thrown at him for not pulling down that PWCC banner quite fast enough..... He didn't ever condone what PWCC did (and was doing,) he didn't excuse it, he didn't stifle criticism of it, and he certainly didn't defend it.

So I'm wondering if the people who had the pitchforks out then are more forgiving when someone (for money) steps up to defend PWCC now.

You obviously missed when he called several of us idiots and morons.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

A tough time for us? Why? Actually things couldn’t be better for both of us so not sure what you mean by that?

As for Jeff and Brent and anything else hobby related, I’m not an attorney so not sure how attorney/client privilege plays into any of this or what Brent is planning on doing. For that you’re probably better off consulting with David James as he seems to think he has a better grasp of these topics. Unless of course he’s busy searching for El Chapo’s billions. What I do know though, is after replaying yesterday’s events my most poignant post yet could be the one about self fulfilling prophecy. Why anyone would go out of their way to assist many of you is probably a better question for you to ask?

Wow! Just wow....Good luck then.....Maybe a lot of the members are right

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You obviously missed when he called several of us idiots and morons.

Some of us are. What's fun is, we each get to figure out who.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Steven,

I have bought many high end cards from your brother over the years, I know this must be a tough time for both of you guys. But in the midst of this thread, there really hasn't been any clarification on Jeff's part pertaining what I'm about to ask.... If he is indeed looking to rectify a problem for collectors, isn't he in fact violating client privilege, or is Huigens pleading the fifth?

Kevin I think you're confusing a few concepts here. Attorney client privilege pertains to communications, which the attorney can't waive without the client's consent. But Jeff hasn't disclosed any privileged communications here. I think what you're really asking is can Jeff simultaneously represent Brent as well as the interests of collectors. The answer of course is no, IF there is a conflict then one's duty is solely to one's client. From Jeff's posts he obviously doesn't think there's a conflict; rather, he believes that the same thing that is in Brent's interest -- to cooperate and make restitution -- is also the best deal collectors are going to get out of this fiasco. People can of course disagree with this and have disagreed, and I am not defending that point of view here, just trying to answer your question as I assume after yesterday's ugliness Jeff may choose not to engage with the board over these topics any more. Hope that helps. PS not sure what the 5th Amendment has to do with any of this.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Some of us are. What's fun is, we each get to figure out who.

LOL, that's a fact.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't know, but I imagine a court order (supboena, I imagine) outweighs an NDA. IS that correct?

My understanding is that an NDA can't be enforced to silence information regarding illegal activities. So a person from PSA or PWCC with information on fraud would be free to disclose it without violating their NDA.

* - I am not a lawyer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

My understanding is that an NDA can't be enforced to silence information regarding illegal activities. So a person from PSA or PWCC with information on fraud would be free to disclose it without violating their NDA.

* - I am not a lawyer.

As a practical matter, I wouldn't think anyone is going to try to sue someone for talking to the FBI.

More generally, there's a whole body of law about the balance between confidentiality obligations and whistleblower rights.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Chuck, if it’s not your money why would you care?

We all pay more in higher prices?

You're right, I really don't give a rats ass as I'll never purchase another card from this crooked industry again. You got me there. I just enjoy watching people flush money down the toilet with attorney fees, that's all.

That's why I run a clean business with integrity. It has served me very well financially. Funny when you work with integrity you don't need a criminal attorney, though my best friend is one. Look me up as I'm sure many other haters have. You'll find a speeding ticket in 2009.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Family law, tell me about it. When I was just out of law school my firm was less corporate than it became and we did some of that and it was ugly as hell. In one case I argued and won some motion requiring the husband to pay for something and he starts cursing at me and insulting my abilities right in the courtroom with the judge still on the bench for the next matter, total circus.

You're lucky Peter. That's nothing compared to what I've experienced. I'm not sure what's going on Steven but if I were your sibling in this situation I would promptly tell you to shut up.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kevin I think you're confusing a few concepts here. Attorney client privilege pertains to communications, which the attorney can't waive without the client's consent. But Jeff hasn't disclosed any privileged communications here. I think what you're really asking is can Jeff simultaneously represent Brent as well as the interests of collectors. The answer of course is no, IF there is a conflict then one's duty is solely to one's client. From Jeff's posts he obviously doesn't think there's a conflict; rather, he believes that the same thing that is in Brent's interest -- to cooperate and make restitution -- is also the best deal collectors are going to get out of this fiasco. People can of course disagree with this and have disagreed, and I am not defending that point of view here, just trying to answer your question as I assume after yesterday's ugliness Jeff may choose not to engage with the board over these topics any more. Hope that helps. PS not sure what the 5th Amendment has to do with any of this.

Pete...Just sarcasm....

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Some of us are. What's fun is, we each get to figure out who.

I mean, I know I'm a buffoon. So what, every form needs the asses point.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by kateighty

You're lucky Peter. That's nothing compared to what I've experienced. I'm not sure what's going on Steven but if I were your sibling in this situation I would promptly tell you to shut up.

Luckily for me you’re not my sibling and seem to have enough problems of your own you should be worrying about.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kateighty

You're lucky Peter. That's nothing compared to what I've experienced. I'm not sure what's going on Steven but if I were your sibling in this situation I would promptly tell you to shut up.

Why would Jeff tell Steven to shut up?

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You obviously missed when he called several of us idiots and morons.

And thin skinned.

As for Jeff he absolutely should not be commenting on here period if he's representing El Brento. Stop pressing for it people. I think we should just all drop this thread.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why would Jeff tell Steven to shut up?

His brother is running his mouth and saying all sorts of stuff. Not exactly helping the situation.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by kateighty

And thin skinned.

As for Jeff he absolutely should not be commenting on here period if he's representing El Brento. Stop pressing for it people. I think we should just all drop this thread.

Kat, let’s hope the phone doesn’t ring tonight and frighten you if big, bad, meanie Leon is on the other end. I hate to stereotype but....

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Luckily for me you’re not my sibling and seem to have enough problems of your own you should be worrying about.

Huh? Do share as I don't have any problems at the moment Steven, other than my cousin being in a medically induced coma following a car accident. If you have the balls do feel free to message me about my problems.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kateighty

His brother is running his mouth and saying all sorts of stuff. Not exactly helping the situation.

I am missing the concern, sorry. It's a chatboard. Steven's opinions have no effect on Brent's case.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Kat, let’s hope the phone doesn’t ring tonight and frighten you if big, bad, meanie Leon is on the other end. I hate to stereotype but....

Leon and I are actually pretty cool despite our disagreements. Just cut it out dude.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Kat, let’s hope the phone doesn’t ring tonight and frighten you if big, bad, meanie Leon is on the other end. I hate to stereotype but....

I think you're running out of steam my man....Time to move on while the getting is good....

[leaflover]

HEY LEON ….. Is the Net54 dinner still on?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by leaflover

HEY LEON ….. Is the Net54 dinner still on?

With Huigens. Moser, Orlando, and J. Lichtman as speakers. A panel discussion on What's Good for the Hobby.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With Huigens. Moser, Orlando, and J. Lichtman as speakers. A panel discussion on What's Good for the Hobby.

And Lichtman's brother on the topic "How to win people over with charm and subtlety"

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am missing the concern, sorry. It's a chatboard. Steven's opinions have no effect on Brent's case.

Obviously. Jeff can't post anymore and suddenly his brother has all of these jabs and opinions? I mean he said this: "Yes he is my younger brother which only makes me even more infuriated that he would represent such a lying, slimy piece of garbage, who intentionally tried to f*ck me and did so to many of you. But all I can say now is grab of box of popcorn and watch this play out. Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win a war."

If Jeter Spaeth said that stuff you'd probably be all cut it out.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I think you're running out of steam my man....Time to move on while the getting is good....

Kevin, just because you PM’d me to call you on the phone and I didn’t drop what I was doing to call you that minute doesn’t mean you should lash out. I would have gotten to you when I was done with what I was doing. Now why don’t you go find a lava lamp or some puka beads and put them on BST so you can pay the rent this month?

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With Huigens. Moser, Orlando, and J. Lichtman as speakers. A panel discussion on What's Good for the Hobby.

Peter and Jeter Spaeth come on guys someone please tell me it made someone laugh!

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Kevin, just because you PM’d me to call you on the phone and I didn’t drop what I was doing to call you that minute doesn’t mean you should lash out. I would have gotten to you when I was done with what I was doing. Now why don’t you go find a lava lamp or some puka beads and put them on BST so you can pay the rent this month?

Still waiting for my PM Steven. Bring it on.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by kateighty

Still waiting for my PM Steven. Bring it on.

Kat, why play it out in private? Bring it on in front of everyone.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Kevin, just because you PM’d me to call you on the phone and I didn’t drop what I was doing to call you that minute doesn’t mean you should lash out. I would have gotten to you when I was done with what I was doing. Now why don’t you go find a lava lamp or some puka beads and put them on BST so you can pay the rent this month?

Gotta be tough being a wannabe....You always have your brother's will to count on though...

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by kateighty

Obviously. Jeff can't post anymore and suddenly his brother has all of these jabs and opinions? I mean he said this: "Yes he is my younger brother which only makes me even more infuriated that he would represent such a lying, slimy piece of garbage, who intentionally tried to f*ck me and did so to many of you. But all I can say now is grab of box of popcorn and watch this play out. Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win a war."

If Jeter Spaeth said that stuff you'd probably be all cut it out.

well said....I would venture to say that Jeff has the higher IQ here....

[whitehse]

I am seriously waiting for the "My dad can beat your dad up" post.

For the love of God (or whoever it is you believe in) can we just let this thread die now. Personal attacks never get anyone anywhere. You are all better than this.

Geez.