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#151
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The consignor might prefer the current situation better. No guarantee "the same bidders" generate the same bids. Underbidders may lose interest.
Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk |
#152
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It worked perfectly and as far as I know they never had an issue. Most of the time the single aggregate won so each card sold separately but they also had some set totals that won. As previously stated, all lots ended at the same time. |
#153
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Please let me what damages occurred, and amounts, when you have time.
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors Last edited by Republicaninmass; 10-01-2023 at 02:28 PM. |
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#155
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I agree. No way they would start everything over from the beginning. If they're going to restart bidding, it will be from where everything currently is.
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#156
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I think they just take the goodwill hit and leave things as they stand. Too complicated and even in that scenario someone or soneones are still going to be unhappy. The folks who won the individual lots want their cards for what they bid, they don't care about fairness at this point.
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-01-2023 at 02:39 PM. |
#157
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If that happens the base price is what the aggregate lots closed for plus $1 which Powell has already agreed to so the consignor is protected and only has upside potential.
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#158
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Val said re-auction, it sounded like he was saying do it all over again, not just from the point where it closed, but maybe I misunderstood.
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#159
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At worst, I should be declared the winner at $1 more than the individual lots as the last bids on those closed the market. Otherwise, any “further bids” were intended to defeat the set price and were not specific to an individual card.
While still not right, the consignor gets the benefit of the doubt and the set stays together which I bet the consignor prefers as the story and legacy of the find continues. |
#160
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If Heritage goes that way you can't re auction with access to everybody, you've already identified the 13 interested parties, those are the only people who should be allowed to bid.
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#161
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Agree but it's a highly unlikely scenario IMO. Although come to think of it, don't you need the underbidders too?
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-01-2023 at 02:53 PM. |
#162
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Peter, Heritage could re-start the auction with the bids as they were (1) at the start of the overtime period, or (2) at the point in time when the bidding on the complete set was closed.
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Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo. Also E222 cards of Lipe, Revelle & Ryan. |
#163
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That would certainly make more sense than restarting, but IMO there is no way that is going to happen for reasons already stated, it pisses off too many people namely every guy who already won and is expecting his card(s). They don't care at this point what's fair to Powell. I'll be glad to be wrong, because I think fairness here favors Powell, but I think Heritage is going to let things stand.
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-01-2023 at 02:57 PM. |
#164
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The underbidders on the individual lots had their shot, now it's a question of the 12 highest bidders against Powell.
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#165
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Right, if it starts from where it ended before.
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#166
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rea ran a 1980 topps pepsi set vs individual cards a few years back. i dont remember exactly if it all ended at same time, but indiviudal cards won out. just providng another example of set vs individual cards being run by major auction house. does anyone remember if it all closed at once. again, probably a moot point here since heritage screwed the pooche here
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-Dar.ius Hou.seal |
#167
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This reminds me of the REA computer glitches in overtime when, if I remember correctly, some items showed that they were closed when in fact they weren’t. I still think the cards should be reauctioned and, unlike others, I think that everyone should be able to bid (I’m sure the consignor agrees with me). I would end the auction for all lots at a fixed time to avoid a repeat of this issue. Otherwise, you can use the same software; you just need a total vs parts page.
As for the consignor being happier if the cards stay together I agree, unless of course it costs him any money. |
#168
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I agree, Jay. Ultimately the consigner’s wishes should be honored first. Who knows, he may want the cards to sell as they just did.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#169
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These auction companies are moving hundreds of millions of dollars through their catalogs annually.
Pay the team of 10 software engineers their juicy six figure salaries and bonuses to make your website and tools as modern as possible. I hope Heritage has a way to work with all the parties involved here and ensure this never happens again. |
#170
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#171
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I felt like something like this would happen so i focused and picked up the Gehrig rookie. Cant believe the price i got this at.
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#172
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I believe that Heritage is the biggest auction house in the world by volume, so their reputation is of paramount importance and a mess up such as this might frighten their huge customer base. I don't know how this is going to play out but a public apology would be a good start.
My buddy Aaron mentioned that he has already been invoiced for the beautiful Baker. If he pays immediately then a contract has been made with an offer and acceptance then fulfilled and he legally owns the card. Any court would agree. Powell is quite obviously a large and valued customer of Heritage and has a valid case to claim all the lots. Heritage cannot dismiss his claim with crying "software glitch". Heritage is a legally incorporated company with shareholders, officers etc. not a computer. No matter how this all shakes out but the bluebird of unhappiness is going to land on someone. Finally, I always thought that this AH gimmick of single lots versus total aggregate was just a way to entice bidders to open their wallets a bit more than they normally might. |
#173
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What a mess. This thread needs more pictures.
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#174
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#175
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-01-2023 at 05:49 PM. |
#176
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Yoda,
I respectfully disagree. The offer and acceptance already occurred when i was the high bidder and the set closed. My account confirmed I was the winner. The post contract invoice to Aaron (and no disrespect to Aaron) and any payment by him is a nullity. The contract was formed by the high bid when the set lot closed and while ratification is not necessary it was ratified by Heritage afterward with it indicated in my account as a win Friday night and Saturday morning. I still believe Heritage will do the right thing but haven’t heard a response yet from a person with authority. I hope my faith in Heritage doesn’t prove misplaced and put me in a very angry place. |
#177
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Congrats on a monster pickup
__________________
Thanks all Jeff Kuhr https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/ Looking for 1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards 1920s Advertising Card Babe Ruth/Carl Mays All Stars Throwing Pose 1917-20 Felix Mendelssohn Babe Ruth 1921 Frederick Foto Ruth Rare early Ruth Cards and Postcards Rare early Joe Jackson Cards and Postcards 1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson 1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson 1911 Pinkerton Joe Jackson |
#178
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-01-2023 at 06:16 PM. |
#179
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Powell
I agree after reading all the posts that you should be the winner and the individual bidders sadly lost out. I would be clueless how to make it right and it is ugly to all parties. It is amazing any auction house that does an auction this way would not have a set policy and software infrastructure to handle this. Heritage is a top notch auction and it will be interesting to see how this plays out. People talk compensation but how do you compensate for losing out on a extremely rare item and the people that lose out thinking they were winning their item potentially did not bid on other items they passed on to get the Boston Store. So I do not know what compensation/amount makes up for not getting you rare card I hope for all it works out as best as possible. But sadly I do not think it will or know how it will
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Thanks all Jeff Kuhr https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/ Looking for 1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards 1920s Advertising Card Babe Ruth/Carl Mays All Stars Throwing Pose 1917-20 Felix Mendelssohn Babe Ruth 1921 Frederick Foto Ruth Rare early Ruth Cards and Postcards Rare early Joe Jackson Cards and Postcards 1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson 1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson 1911 Pinkerton Joe Jackson Last edited by mrreality68; 10-01-2023 at 06:17 PM. |
#180
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If I were Powell, I'd be livid. In my own personal opinion, he should be the winner and Heritage needs to make it right with the cosigner and the individual bidders....whatever that means. Heritage has over $1Bn in revenues and this is just unacceptable. I don’t want to throw around negligence, but damn, it’s bonkers that a company of their magnitude and presence could make such a disastrous mistake. There’s a good reason they aren’t public… The mistake should never have happened...period. Again, I’d be livid.
With that said, Heritage, of course has crafted their T&C with some outs. The easiest out is the idiotic clause about any disagreement can be settled by Heritage and redoing the auction – someone quoted it earlier…I can’t find it. Quote:
In the end, I hope they do the right thing and everyone is made hole in some way. I stated my view which is Powell deserves the win here. just sucks how it was done. -Darius
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-Dar.ius Hou.seal Last edited by dariushou; 10-01-2023 at 07:12 PM. Reason: clean ups...bad grammar :) |
#181
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Powell--Regardless of what your HA page said, how could you ever have won the lot? The auction indicates that the cards will either go to the individual bidders or the aggregate bidder, whichever yields a higher total. These would have to be compared when the auction is closed and if I understand the facts correctly when the auction closed the individual bids exceeded your bid.
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#182
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What you might have missed is that since the total set closed due to no other bidders and thus he could not increase his bids if the individual bids were higher. So his closed at the 30 minute limit with no other bids and some of the individuals stayed open. Those extra times they went up and exceeded his total set bid. And he could not raise his bid above them since the system closed him out
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Thanks all Jeff Kuhr https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/ Looking for 1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards 1920s Advertising Card Babe Ruth/Carl Mays All Stars Throwing Pose 1917-20 Felix Mendelssohn Babe Ruth 1921 Frederick Foto Ruth Rare early Ruth Cards and Postcards Rare early Joe Jackson Cards and Postcards 1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson 1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson 1911 Pinkerton Joe Jackson |
#183
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He was handicapped by Heritage to bid further. He entered a bogus contract if you ask me. Well, Heritage made it bogus. my two cents
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-Dar.ius Hou.seal |
#184
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#185
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Respectfully, you are mistaken on both points.
First, the premise. The Heritage site accepted my bid as the high bidder. I waited the full 30 minutes and no one out bid me. The Heritage site said I won and no more bids were allowed for the set. It was locked out because the cards were sold too me and the win was reflected on my account Friday night and Saturday morning. Second, I relied on the Heritage site saying I won the set. There was no reason for me to believe other lots were still open. The set was sold to me as the hammer went down when the timer expired. It would be nonsensical for me to disregard the Heritage site closing the set lot with me as high bidder and put the burden on me to look up 12 other lots and add them up after I won. That’s Heritage’s job and not mine. Third, an astute member on this board (check out earlier posts) did add them up and the set was winning at over the individual lots at the time the set was sold to me. He was aghast that (after I went to sleep as the winner) that the individual lots were allowed to bid but not the closed set lot and overtook the set. It’s clear and obvious that I won fair and square. |
#186
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This really shouldn't have been that hard.
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Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
#187
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Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#188
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Fair, or at least equal, where the bidders are concerned is achievable, but there is no perfect solution.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
#189
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__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
#190
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The wording wasn't the problem because no one in their right mind thought it would work the way it did. The software wasn't the problem. It was the setup that was the problem (heritage problem). The wording like most of the time was insufficient in my opinion, but not the problem...but will be one of the factors the courts look too...if it gets that far.
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-Dar.ius Hou.seal Last edited by dariushou; 10-01-2023 at 07:39 PM. |
#191
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Sounds like HA didn't connect the individual lots and the set lot on the backend software. IMO, HA should award the set to Powell and pay the delta to the consigner.
__________________
Join my Cracker Jack group on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/crac...rdsmarketplace https://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/ajohnson39 *Proudest hobby accomplishment: finished (and retired) the 1914 Cracker Jack set currently ranked #12 all-time |
#192
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It seems to me Powell has a very good and reasonable reliance argument.
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#193
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If all lots ( set and individual cards) closed after no bids for 30 minutes, then the individual cards would have been the winner , as it turned out.
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Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline). |
#194
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Apparently that wasn't true when the lot for the complete set closed which is the problem because the high bidder for the set (Powell) was told he won when the complete set lot closed. If it had stayed open he would have been able to bid above the total cost of the individual lots.
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#195
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#196
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Mile High and other auction houses that utilizes the set bid or bids of cards comprising the set format, as the Boston Garters, uses Simple Auction site or Create Auction software. It appears Heritage uses software they or another company beside Simple and Create developed which is why Mile High and other auction companies have not encountered this problem. |
#197
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Trying to wrap up my master mays set, with just a few left: 1968 American Oil left side 1971 Bazooka numbered complete panel |
#198
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To recap, and repeat, the simplest way to view this, I think, is that the set lot never should have closed while bidding was still going on for the individual lots. That effectively foreclosed Powell from competing at the end. It seems a simple analysis in terms of the equities. It will certainly be interesting to see Heritage's response.
__________________
Net 54-- the discussion board where people resent discussions. ![]() My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ |
#199
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Last edited by Vintageclout; 10-01-2023 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Typo |
#200
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Such a scenario can never work in an "individual lot closing" format and these problems should've been foreseen. This will cost Heritage dearly, not to mention the Consignor (who left A LOT of money on the table).
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Be sure to subscribe to my YouTube Channel, The Stuff Of Greatness. New videos are uploaded every week... https://www.youtube.com/@tsogreatness/videos |
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