Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

If the auction was the higher of the set or the aggregate of the lots, and the set closed as the winner, then it’s the winner. Period, full stop. Especially without disclosure that one option could stay open while another closed. Not only is the set the winner of it ended as the winner, but it’s fundamentally unfair to allow one of the two competing items to stay open longer than the other.

This is a big mess up. Of course Heritage did not mean or anticipate this. I expect they will do the right thing, which in my opinion is sell the set to Powell at the closing price and pay the consignor the difference between the individual lots and the final price. The winners of the individual lots will be left with nothing, which sucks, but is the correct result bc they rightfully lost the minute the entire auction closed as the high bidder

I respectfully disagree. Powell could have upped his bid in the extended half hour to anticipate and protect the complete set from getting outbid. The complete set received 0 bids in extended bidding similar to 6 or 7 of the individual lots which closed at the same time, including the Baker which I was high bidder on. Several of the individual lots received bids in the extended half hour which, of course, resets their timer. Most notably the Tinker & Maranville continued much later.

Heritage’s rules were listed (and still are) not once but twice in each lot. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Here is what each lot said twice:

“ Please note that this auction will list each card as an individual lot along with another listing for the complete set. If the aggregate winning bids of the twelve individual lots exceeds the high bid on the complete set, the cards will be sold to each individual winner. If the price of the set exceeds the sum of the twelve individual cards, the victory will be awarded to the high bidder for the complete set.”

[calvindog]

Aaron, the problem is as noted above. He couldn’t raise his bid on the full set lot with a ceiling bid and have it register unless someone else bid after him (but below the ceiling he had set).

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Aaron, the problem is as noted above. He couldn’t raise his bid on the full set lot with a ceiling bid and have it register unless someone else bid after him (but below the ceiling he had set).

+1.

Aaron, it’s a real shitty situation all around. But the fact that the full set closed and could not increase /add another bid, when the other lots were open and the set only wins if it’s price exceeds the aggregate, to me, is determinative.

Of course, all the lots should have stayed open until no garters lot got a bid for 30 minutes, bc Aaron could have easily been in Powell’s boat had his lot closed and he could not bid but the whole set stayed open

[calvindog]

That’s it in a nutshell. Powell was prevented from competing while the individual lots were still open.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

At least we all agree that the format was a mess to begin with.

But let’s not forget it has now advanced to the point that the individual lots have been invoiced. Also, none of HA’s rules were broken or changed… so far.

I expect they will stand by their rules as any seller with integrity would. I also sincerely hope this is a learning lesson for all auction houses/sellers in the future.

[toothcutter]

I felt like something like this would happen so i focused and picked up the Gehrig rookie. Cant believe the price i got this at.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by toothcutter

I felt like something like this would happen so i focused and picked up the Gehrig rookie. Cant believe the price i got this at.

That qualifies as a steal to me.

Congrats on a monster pickup

[mrreality68]

Powell

I agree after reading all the posts that you should be the winner and the individual bidders sadly lost out.
I would be clueless how to make it right and it is ugly to all parties. It is amazing any auction house that does an auction this way would not have a set policy and software infrastructure to handle this.
Heritage is a top notch auction and it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
People talk compensation but how do you compensate for losing out on a extremely rare item and the people that lose out thinking they were winning their item potentially did not bid on other items they passed on to get the Boston Store.
So I do not know what compensation/amount makes up for not getting you rare card

I hope for all it works out as best as possible. But sadly I do not think it will or know how it will

[insidethewrapper]

In the Auction Catalog under "Conducting the Auction # 14 it states " In the event of any dispute between any bidders at an Auction, Auctioneer may at his sole discretion reoffer the lot. Auctioneer's decision and declaration of the winning Bidder shall be final and binding upon all bidders "

So Heritage can reoffer the lots if they want or declare the winners as final.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

In the Auction Catalog under "Conducting the Auction # 14 it states " In the event of any dispute between any bidders at an Auction, Auctioneer may at his sole discretion reoffer the lot. Auctioneer's decision and declaration of the winning Bidder shall be final and binding upon all bidders "

So Heritage can reoffer the lots if they want or declare the winners as final.

They already declared Powell the winner, then retracted that decision. I'm sure that authority is not addressed in their rules.

[insidethewrapper]

That's the problem, the software stated he " won " when he really "lost".

[Powell]

Aaron,

Respectfully, I did bid in extended time. My bid was accepted and I waited the full 30 minutes. I checked my account and it said I won (I lost my other bids and they were correctly identified as losers). Saturday morning I looked up my account and the set was listed as winner. I learned otherwise from this board later in the morning. The set lot ended with me as the winner, reported me as the winner and no one including me could bid on the set after I won. I’m optimistic Heritage will do the right thing. It’s not your fault and I don’t blame you. I am a processional trial lawyer and I would never let my clients get screwed by making a deal and having the rug pulled out from under them. I have had great relations with Heritage so I’m confident it won’t end up in Court but no fair minded person could say that I didn’t win the set fair and square.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the intent was to run the set against the individual lots, it seems obvious that has to assume a comparison at the same time. Heritage should have foreseen that the normal closing rules could not accomplish that, and should apologize to winners of the individual lots and award the set to Powell.

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is an analogy - the eagles are playing the Lions (Baker v Cobb). The rules state that whoever has the most points at the end of 60 minutes, wins. When the clock expires after 60 minutes, the Lions are winning 30-20. But then, for some reason, the eagles are given the chance to keep playing until either they score more than 30 points or give up; all the while, the lions are stuck in the locker room and not able to defend their victory. While I am sure there are eagles fans who would declare this legit, my gut is all other NFL fans would declare the lions the proper victor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The way it probably should have worked, off the top of my head, is the set should have remained open until all the single lots closed, and Powell then should have had an opportunity to top the total.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The way it probably should have worked, off the top of my head, is the set should have remained open until all the single lots closed, and Powell then should have had an opportunity to top the total.

But that would put Aaron in Powells current position. Aaron would have gone to bed winning the single lot and not being able to bid higher, woken up the next morning and see that he lost the lot, assuming Powell went higher on the set.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

But that would put Aaron in Powells current position. Aaron would have gone to bed winning the single lot and not being able to bid higher, woken up the next morning and see that he lost the lot, assuming Powell went higher on the set.

It has to end sometime. I agree no way is perfect but I think mine achieves the intent of the auction. And bidders on single lots are on notice they might lose out to the set.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It has to end sometime. I agree no way is perfect but I think mine achieves the intent of the auction. And bidders on single lots are on notice they might lose out to the set.

The singles and set have to be linked and run at the same time and all end after no bids after 30 minutes on any singles or the set. The software was not set up for that format, this scenario should have been anticipated by the AH and made adjustments.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

But that would put Aaron in Powells current position. Aaron would have gone to bed winning the single lot and not being able to bid higher, woken up the next morning and see that he lost the lot, assuming Powell went higher on the set.

Of course, which is why all the lots should have stayed open until none received a bid for 30 mins.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Of course, which is why all the lots should have stayed open until none received a bid for 30 mins.

+1

This really shouldn't have been that hard.