Current HOF election results

[Misunderestimated]

Looks like Scott Rolen and maybe Todd Helton .... Billy Wagner and Andruw Jones not quite...
Beltran's getting docked for his role in Astros cheating.

http://www.bbhoftracker.com/

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Looks like Scott Rolen and maybe Todd Helton .... Billy Wagner and Andruw Jones not quite...
Beltran's getting docked for his role in Astros cheating.

http://www.bbhoftracker.com/

The unpublished values tend to lower the percentages some, but I agree that Helton appears to be trending well, with Helton having a shot.

I actually think Beltran's showing is pretty good. If you make 50%+ your first year, you're kind of on the first track.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not seeing the case for Andruw Jones at all. Unless you want to admit Delgado, Gallaraga, and god knows who else. Yes, I know he could play center field.

[butchie_t]

Todd Helton has made a very nice jump from last year. Makes me happy, I have a good number of his cards autographed when he was in Colorado Springs.

Question I have to the group is who is the best TPG when it comes to autographed cards?

Butch

[z28jd]

It looks like right now that no one will make it because Helton and Rolen aren't picking up enough new votes to make up their difference from last year. Check the percentage of ballots counted vs the number of new votes from last year and what they need. Neither is trending high enough.

That's a shame for Rolen, because his combined defense/offense makes him a better than some first ballot HOF'ers.

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

[G1911]

By the time we’re done keeping out and kicking out everyone who has done something negative or somebody doesn’t like because they don’t suit X narrative, we will have a plaque of Christy Mathewson in an otherwise empty building.

[FrankWakefield]

So let's then realize that Matty will get lonesome, and we restore about 40-50 of the best of the others.

[JollyElm]

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

[butchie_t]

Agree. I vote for both Todd and Scott. Screw that war junk.

I STILL believe Todd was screwed out of ROY just because the voters were enamored with Kerry Wood at the time. Ugh….. I’ll take a HOF selection for a nice compensation.

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

Baseball has been about stats for oh, about 150 years now, and WAR is one of the best.

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[jingram058]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

A big +1 and Amen!

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I hope that the voters keep only his on-field activities in mind when voting. No one is perfect and what happens off the field should have zero effect on HOF voting. Its not the "Perfect Human Being" HOF.

[Chris-Counts]

By the numbers and compared those already inducted, Scott Rolen is clearly a Hall of Famer. It's not even close. Pie Traynor was once considered the greatest third baseman who ever lived. So was Jimmy Collins. Would you really rather have either one of those guys on your team instead of Rolen?

Many fans simply misunderstand what a Hall of Fame third baseman looks like. There are few third sackers history who had a great glove to go along with hitting for power and average, like Rolen. As a result, there are far fewer third baseman inducted in Cooperstown than any other position, including executives who never played the game (17 third baseman vs. 40 executives). I see this as an indictment that the Hall of Fame is as much of a good old boys club as it is an institution that truly honors the best who ever played the game.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I could care less about Helton making it. I have no respect for any drunken drivers, especially not habitual offenders like him. Cooperstown only has one traffic light, so if he does eventually make it, be careful of the road if you go to his ceremony.

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

He said he has no respect for drunk drivers, no where did he say Helton isn't a HOFer or that others should be removed from the HOF.

You might feel Helton is a nice man but the fact is that he's a convicted criminal who's lucky he never killed anyone.

I feel that should have no bearing on his HOF voting, since the HOF is already full of drug smugglers, wife beaters, racists, cheaters, etc.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Seems pretty harsh to me.

So you are calling for the removal of Carlton Fisk, Tony LaRussa and other HOFers who have been convicted of DUIs?

Helton was the best fielding first baseman I ever saw. His hitting reflexes were incredible. Also a very nice man, although an introvert.

Edited to add:

Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson and Michael Phelps should all be removed from their respective Hall of Fames under the proposed standard.

well , what if DUI ended up killing someone..if still ok to be in HOF than i agree


but if you dont agree then a hypocrit...because when DUI you cant control what will happen...shouldnt get credit for failing in the attempt...if ok with DUI and killing someone and going to Hall than fine..

[Misunderestimated]

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

[G1911]

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

Ashburn? I guess not, his hitting totals look better than I remembered. Just no power.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Originally Posted by G1911

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

Ozzie Smith

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

I hear you. But .254 BA yikes, and as you pointed out that's without much of a tail off.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hear you. But .254 BA yikes, and as you pointed out that's without much of a tail off.

Centerfielder extraordinaire Cesar Geronimo had a career batting average of .258, and he is in the Hall of Fame*


* The Reds Hall of Fame

[butchie_t]

It’s all good, no need to apologize.

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

I'd say the same about Jim Edmonds!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

Jones also hit 400+ homers, including 51 one year. He brought a lot to the table besides his defense.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not seeing the case for Andruw Jones at all. Unless you want to admit Delgado, Gallaraga, and god knows who else. Yes, I know he could play center field.

Yes, at a Willie Mays level. But also agree he's not hall-worthy.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not seeing the case for Andruw Jones at all. Unless you want to admit Delgado, Gallaraga, and god knows who else. Yes, I know he could play center field.

I haven't looked at the fielding data, but I have always been of the opinion that Andruw Jones was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. I value that highly.

[Jason19th]

I know it is of little actual consequence, but I miss the days when a solid player like J.J. Hardy would get a handful of votes. I though it was a nice recognition for a player who was a couple of time all star and had a nice career to get a few votes. My guess it was usually the hometown writers. Just seems sort of mean to see the zero %

[mrreality68]

I have no problem seeing Scott Rolen and Todd Helton in the HOF and hopefully the expected droppoff percentage wise will not be to much and will get them in.

I am not a fan of Billy Wagner getting in

I am neutral regarding Andrew Jones

I would like to see Sheffield In

Beltran I am on the fence about he deserves to be in but the Scandal with Houston is an issue

I would love to see Jeff Kent to get in

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

.... Billy Wagner and Andruw Jones not quite...[/url]

I had to go back to the first post to realize that when people were talking about 'Wagner and Jones', they did not mean Billy Wagner and Doug Jones. Jones was the Astros closer a couple of years before Billy Wagner. Jones was really good, and fun to watch. They were both good closers in Astros' history. It never occurred to me that they would make it to the Hall of Fame.

[etsmith]

jingram058, how in the world can you not see Craig Biggio as worthy of the Hall of Fame? If we went by your definition we'd have no one in the Hall of Fame.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by etsmith

jingram058, how in the world can you not see Craig Biggio as worthy of the Hall of Fame? If we went by your definition we'd have no one in the Hall of Fame.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not in Houston, but I watched him for his entire career, and not until he approached 3000 hits did I ever think I was looking at a HOFer. Darn excellent player, sure. But not Schmidt or Morgan or FThomas. Sorry.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I had to go back to the first post to realize that when people were talking about 'Wagner and Jones', they did not mean Billy Wagner and Doug Jones. Jones was the Astros closer a couple of years before Billy Wagner. Jones was really good, and fun to watch. They were both good closers in Astros' history. It never occurred to me that they would make it to the Hall of Fame.

I forgot about Doug Jones. Interesting career. His entire career seemed to teeter from abysmal to getting MVP votes for his bullpen work, from one year to the next. Didn't really get a good taste of Major League ball until he was 30 years old...but hung around until his mid-40's, and is listed as 12th All-Time in "Games Finished".

[JollyElm]

781. Fringe Vanilla
The players whose career numbers are somewhat in the neighborhood of Cooperstown-worthy respectability, but don’t enjoy much, if any, serious support from baseball fans for enshrinement.

See also: Free-for-Hall - any thread that was ostensibly started to ‘discuss’ the merits of various enshrined Hall of Famers, but devolves into a rancorous, opinionated airing of grievances.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I forgot about Doug Jones. Interesting career. His entire career seemed to teeter from abysmal to getting MVP votes for his bullpen work, from one year to the next. Didn't really get a good taste of Major League ball until he was 30 years old...but hung around until his mid-40's, and is listed as 12th All-Time in "Games Finished".

All while throwing a fastball as fast as I could!! I hated that the Tribe let him go.

[Misunderestimated]

I also don't recall thinking about Biggio as a HOF level player much when he was playing -- Bagwell was the guy on the Astros.... Then I read Bill James's Historical Abstract ... Biggio was still active and James made a typically convincing case that he was a very valuable player -- he had him ranked highly as an all-time 2B. Then Biggio's 3000 hits basically cemented his HOF candidacy. Until the use of PEDs (suspected or proven) 3000 hits punched the ticket to Cooperstown (just like 300 Wins and 500 Home Runs did).
James was impressed by Biggio's ability to get on base -- he took a lot of HBP almost passed Jennings's all-time mark... missed by two. (maybe Anthony Rizzo will pass it if he sticks around)
Anyway, looking at Biggio's baseball-reference page what jumps out at me is his Runs scored. Career: 1844.
---
Looking at the voting it looks like Rolen and maybe Helton are the only ones who have a chance. The pre-reported numbers are generally better than the ultimate tally so it would not shock me if the writers throw a shutout.

[jayshum]

My guess is no one gets elected this year by the writers. From the ballot tracker stats, it doesn't look like Rolen, Helton and Wagner are flipping enough voters from last year to make up for the likely dropoff that is seen with voters who don't publicize their ballots. It looks like Helton and Wagner will both have bigger increases than Rolen but still likely all will fall short.

[Chuck9788]

Originally Posted by jayshum

My guess is no one gets elected this year by the writers. From the ballot tracker stats, it doesn't look like Rolen, Helton and Wagner are flipping enough voters from last year to make up for the likely dropoff that is seen with voters who don't publicize their ballots. It looks like Helton and Wagner will both have bigger increases than Rolen but still likely all will fall short.

[mrreality68]

agreed it is going to be close.

And in a few hours we shall know.

Stay tuned

Same Bat Time...Same Bat Channel...

[butchie_t]

Scott Rolen makes it in. Todd waits until next year.

Congrats Scott.

Butch

[mrreality68]

His cards will get a a spike in pricing now

[todeen]

Rolen was important for the Reds circa 2010. We needed him, and I was happy we got him. Here's an article written upon his release.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.c...-reds.amp.html

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[todeen]

I have no problem with Rolen being in the HOF. With writers refusing to vote for cheaters, that leaves most of my childhood greats out of the hall. So players like McGriff, Rolen, Andruw Jones, and other hall of very good take their place. Their numbers wouldn't look so bad if the cheaters weren't inflating the offense.

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