Current HOF election results

[JollyElm]

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

[butchie_t]

Agree. I vote for both Todd and Scott. Screw that war junk.

I STILL believe Todd was screwed out of ROY just because the voters were enamored with Kerry Wood at the time. Ugh….. I’ll take a HOF selection for a nice compensation.

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

Baseball has been about stats for oh, about 150 years now, and WAR is one of the best.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[nat]

WAR is just a way to measure what a player did, in a way that helps you answer certain sorts of questions. It's a tool. Like any tool, it's useful for some things, and not for others.

For what it's worth, Rolen measures up very well by WAR. On the career list he's one spot above Ed Delahanty and exactly tied with Carlos Beltran. Which also feels about right to me.

The thing that bothers me about this years' voting is the Billy Wagner love. Yes, he struck out a lot of guys, but in his entire career he pitched only 903 innings. Of course, that's because he was a relief pitcher, but it's going to be very hard to be as valuable to your team as a HOF-level starting pitcher if you're only pitching 70 innings a year.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by nat

The thing that bothers me about this years' voting is the Billy Wagner love. Yes, he struck out a lot of guys, but in his entire career he pitched only 903 innings. Of course, that's because he was a relief pitcher, but it's going to be very hard to be as valuable to your team as a HOF-level starting pitcher if you're only pitching 70 innings a year.

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

[jayshum]

Since there is usually a drop off between the ballots made public before the official results are announced and the ones made public later or never made public, it looks like it will be very close for Rolen and Helton. My guess is that Helton doesn't make it this year, and Rolen will either get in or miss by a few votes.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Since there is usually a drop off between the ballots made public before the official results are announced and the ones made public later or never made public, it looks like it will be very close for Rolen and Helton. My guess is that Helton doesn't make it this year, and Rolen will either get in or miss by a few votes.

Rolen missed by 47 votes last year. While he is trending well with the few first-time voters, he has only picked up eight votes from people who didn't vote for him last year, with 35.8% of the votes accounted for right now. That pace is going to need to get a lot higher soon, otherwise we are looking at him missing by about 20-25 votes.

As I said, the first-time voters help, but they also add to the amount of votes he needs to get in, so their help is minimal. He needs more of the people who don't release their ballots online to switch to him. He only received 34% of the votes with the people who didn't release their ballots at all last year, and that group is about 20% of the voters. Public voters had him at 69%, though it also went down with the people who waited to release their ballots until after the results are announced.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

Except in the playoffs, which kills him for me. 10.03 ERA in the biggest games of his career and a WHIP close to 2. He melted down in practically every playoff series he was ever in.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Except in the playoffs, which kills him for me. 10.03 ERA in the biggest games of his career and a WHIP close to 2. He melted down in practically every playoff series he was ever in.

He is also melted down in big regular season games as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

10.03 postseason ERA. Yeah yeah small sample size I can hear it now.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tod41

He is also melted down in big regular season games as well.

Career 1.70 ERA in September & October.

[lowpopper]

if Rolen gets in with his 2000 hits, it's time to stop paying attention

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

Guess you never watched Wagner in the postseason.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tod41

Guess you never watched Wagner in the postseason.

Yep, his 11 whole innings of postseason play were pretty awful. Doesn't change his regular season dominance.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Yep, his 11 whole innings of postseason play were pretty awful. Doesn't change his regular season dominance.

His innings were so low because he was so awful in just about every playoff series he was in. He was the reason the Mets didn't win the World Series in 2006.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He's the best closer not named Mariano Rivera. I don't like closers in the Hall but it's a real position (now) and Wagner was absolutely elite at it for 15 years.

+1

- of course, I have a definite bias toward lefties, plus he finished with the Braves!



.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm just glad that in the first 8 posts there has not been a single, ridiculous reference to the frickin' theoretical stat of WAR. Thank the Lord above (below?)!!!! The players being mentioned are people whose entire careers we basically all witnessed first hand, so we each know who we truly feel are Hall-worthy based on actually watching them play, yes?

A big +1 and Amen!

[jingram058]

Is it just me? The people we're talking about here SEEM mighty weak to be talking about HOF. Unless I'm missing something, these people were good ballplayers. Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

[packs]

I don't think Scott Rolen is a weak HOFer. He's ranked as the 10th best third baseman of all time and the 9 guys ahead of him are all in the HOF (with Beltre being a lock).

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

Yes. Do you really not see these guys up there with the likes of Lindstrom, Kell, Marquard, Maranville, Aparicio, Ferrell, et al.?

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Yes. Do you really not see these guys up there with the likes of Lindstrom, Kell, Marquard, Maranville, Aparicio, Ferrell, et al.?

Well, that's a hard one, because all I know of the fellows you mentioned is what I have read. And depending on what you read, they come off sounding better than their peers. It wasn't me who elected them. I saw Rolen, Wagner, Jones, et al, and to me they aren't HOFers, not even close, and same goes for Biggio, Morris, Baines, etc., already in. Good, but not HOF. To me. If you see things differently that's fine. Obviously, sooner or later someone will be going in. So be it.

[packs]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well, that's a hard one, because all I know of the fellows you mentioned is what I have read. And depending on what you read, they come off sounding better than their peers. It wasn't me who elected them. I saw Rolen, Wagner, Jones, et al, and to me they aren't HOFers, not even close, and same goes for Biggio, Morris, Baines, etc., already in. Good, but not HOF. To me. If you see things differently that's fine. Obviously, sooner or later someone will be going in. So be it.

What do you mean not even close though? Who was better than Rolen in his time? I would say nobody. What else does a third baseman have to do to get into the Hall? He won 8 gold gloves, he won a title, and he's 10th all time in WAR at the position.

There are 9 guys ahead of him, one of which is Paul Molitor, who played less than 800 games at the position. All 9 players ahead of him are in the HOF or in the case of Beltre, are a lock to get in.

How is he not even close? Even the guy directly behind him is in the HOF (Edgar Martinez).

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well, that's a hard one, because all I know of the fellows you mentioned is what I have read. And depending on what you read, they come off sounding better than their peers. It wasn't me who elected them. I saw Rolen, Wagner, Jones, et al, and to me they aren't HOFers, not even close, and same goes for Biggio, Morris, Baines, etc., already in. Good, but not HOF. To me. If you see things differently that's fine. Obviously, sooner or later someone will be going in. So be it.

This is just freaking stupid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Is it just me? The people we're talking about here SEEM mighty weak to be talking about HOF. Unless I'm missing something, these people were good ballplayers. Is that what the HOF is, the Hall of Good? Do you really see these guys up there with Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.?

The HOF has never been limited to truly elite, all time starting lineup type players. So that's a false comparison.

[lampertb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The HOF has never been limited to truly elite, all time starting lineup type players. So that's a false comparison.

True. When the Hall opened, after the first few inaugural classes, they let in a whole mess of "lesser-quality" guys simply to fill the place. I guess nobody was going to buy tickets to a museum with only 12 incomparables in it.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by lampertb

True. When the Hall opened, after the first few inaugural classes, they let in a whole mess of "lesser-quality" guys simply to fill the place. I guess nobody was going to buy tickets to a museum with only 12 incomparables in it.

And don't forget the Frank Frisch-led veterans committee, which gave us Chick Hafey, Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Ross Youngs, Waite Hoyt, Harry Hooper, Rube Marquard, Earle Combs and High Pockets Kelly.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by the-illini

And don't forget the Frank Frisch-led veterans committee, which gave us Chick Hafey, Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Ross Youngs, Waite Hoyt, Harry Hooper, Rube Marquard, Earle Combs and High Pockets Kelly.

This is when the wheels started to come off. The Veterans committee, while certainly responsible for some good, destroyed any opportunity we had at a "Small Hall."

Many questionable choices throughout the years. Not much we can do about it though.

[Exhibitman]

WAR, what is it good for?

Sorry, I had to...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

WAR, what is it good for?

Sorry, I had to...

Been said many times, but always funny, now I have Edwin Starr on the mental audio. Perhaps one of the worst songs of all time, but great in its awfulness. Good god, y'all!!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

WAR, what is it good for?

Sorry, I had to...

Someone's gotta give that a +1. (Edit... Of course Peter beat me to it.)

As for Rolen, I see him as borderline. And I do believe Pie Traynor was more highly regarded (in his time) than Rolen ever was. Excellent 3rd Baseman though.