Current HOF election results

[Misunderestimated]

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

[G1911]

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

Ashburn? I guess not, his hitting totals look better than I remembered. Just no power.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ashburn?

Ashburn’s OPS+ is similar, but that’s because OBP and SLG are not on the same school and OPS heavily weighs slugging. Ashburn had a lot of league leads in offense and was well known as one of the very best top of the order guys. He is over the average HOFer in black and gray ink that counts only his bat, while Jones (HR/RBI once each, during his great season) and Hooper (nothing) are far below. I think Ashburn was batting average first, defense second in the public eye, but such a thing is very difficult to quantify exactly. Probably why the consensus today seems to be split on Jones, Hooper is a bad but not horrific pick, and Ashburn a lower tier but deserving HOFer. I think in this case I agree with what seems to be the general consensus.

[perezfan]

Why is Sheffield getting a better vote percentage than his fellow 'roiders...

A-Rod
Manny
McGwire
Sosa
Palmeiro
Bonds
Clemens

Do they think he was really better than those guys, or do they somehow consider him less of a "user"? Or is it something else?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Why is Sheffield getting a better vote percentage than his fellow 'roiders...

A-Rod
Manny
McGwire
Sosa
Palmeiro
Bonds
Clemens

Do they think he was really better than those guys, or do they somehow consider him less of a "user"? Or is it something else?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...fair-free-pass

Gary Sheffield
5 OF 6
With 509 career home runs to his name, it's not necessarily surprising to attach Gary Sheffield's name to the list of steroid users in the game of baseball. With that said, it is shocking that his name is not grouped with the likes of Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Ken Caminiti.

After all, Sheffield trained with Bonds during the 2001-02 offseason and received PEDs directly from the hands of one of the most notorious steroid users in the game.

Four years removed from baseball, Sheffield will be eligible for the Hall of Fame in 2015. When the ballot comes around, will the BBWAA consider his admission of using a testosterone-based steroid supplied to him by BALCO?

Sheffield came clean about his use of "the cream", as well as pill forms of steroids, that he received from Bonds in a Sports Illustrated piece quoted by the San Francisco Chronicle in 2004.

"(Bonds) said, 'I got guys here, they can get your urine and blood and prescribe a vitamin specifically for your blood type and what your body needs.' And that's what I did."

Sheffield called his 2002 season (the season following his steroid use) his "worst year ever." He hit .307 with 25 home runs and 84 RBI. He dwarfed those numbers in 2003, batting .330 and slugging 39 home runs while driving in 132 runs.

You be the judge.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...fair-free-pass

Gary Sheffield
5 OF 6
With 509 career home runs to his name, it's not necessarily surprising to attach Gary Sheffield's name to the list of steroid users in the game of baseball. With that said, it is shocking that his name is not grouped with the likes of Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Ken Caminiti.

After all, Sheffield trained with Bonds during the 2001-02 offseason and received PEDs directly from the hands of one of the most notorious steroid users in the game.

Four years removed from baseball, Sheffield will be eligible for the Hall of Fame in 2015. When the ballot comes around, will the BBWAA consider his admission of using a testosterone-based steroid supplied to him by BALCO?

Sheffield came clean about his use of "the cream", as well as pill forms of steroids, that he received from Bonds in a Sports Illustrated piece quoted by the San Francisco Chronicle in 2004.

"(Bonds) said, 'I got guys here, they can get your urine and blood and prescribe a vitamin specifically for your blood type and what your body needs.' And that's what I did."

Sheffield called his 2002 season (the season following his steroid use) his "worst year ever." He hit .307 with 25 home runs and 84 RBI. He dwarfed those numbers in 2003, batting .330 and slugging 39 home runs while driving in 132 runs.

You be the judge.

I always had a soft spot for Sheffield since his time with the Yankees.

Elite offensive player when healthy, though his defensive metrics absolutely slaughter his overall value.

Same Rookie card year as Craig Jefferies, with similar hype. Only difference in collector interest, was Jefferies was coming up in the New York market, and Sheffield the Milwaukee market, so Jefferies was held in slightly higher regard by weekend warrior speculators at the time.

Bombed his first few years in Milwaukee. Written off as a bust before he turned his career around.

Absolutely fantastic Walk to Strikeout ratio. I think people forgot what a great hitter he was.

Missed lots of games due to injury, and still racked up some impressive lifetime counting numbers.

Sheff was an ornery guy, and not always gracious with the press, but he did always come off as up-front, genuine and honest...even when it didn't put him in the best light.

As you mentioned, he "came clean", regarding his steroid experiences. How many other players can you say that for, outside of Jose Canseco (who I believe was up front about it for different reasons)?

Nobody ever got the sense from him, he was ever hiding anything, because he was so "matter of fact" about everything.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Originally Posted by G1911

Jones 111 OPS+ really make his bat not look so good. He played in a high run environment in which his offense is not nearly as good as people think when looking at his homers.

I’m not sure there is a defense first outfielder in the hall. Harry Hooper? Hooper is probably his closest type in the Hall. Defensive star in his day, 114 OPS+, some decent raw hitting totals.

He wouldn’t be a horrific choice, don’t think he would be a great one. But it has little to do with actual performance anymore.

Ozzie Smith

[Peter_Spaeth]

Outfielder.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aaron Seefeldt

Ozzie Smith

Try again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

I hear you. But .254 BA yikes, and as you pointed out that's without much of a tail off.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hear you. But .254 BA yikes, and as you pointed out that's without much of a tail off.

Centerfielder extraordinaire Cesar Geronimo had a career batting average of .258, and he is in the Hall of Fame*


* The Reds Hall of Fame

[butchie_t]

It’s all good, no need to apologize.

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Peter -- As you suggest, Andruw's "case" is largely about the fielding as a CF. The claim is that he was in the Willie Mays category as a CF before he got heavy and then couldn't/didn't stick around to run up his hitting stats to 500 HRs or even 2000 Hits. He got to the majors as a fleet teenage prodigy and was DHing by his 30's

I find the fielding stats kind of hard to digest but he put together a run (with Gold Gloves from 1998-2007) that was historically great.

There are plenty of lesser offensive players in the HOF because of their fielding excellence -- middle infield and catchers. I think he rates highest of all outfielders in lifetime DWAR (defensive WAR)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

and scores second all-time for all fielders in something called "Total Zone Runs" which is another combined fielding metric.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

SORRY ABOUT THE WAR STATS --- didn't see Darren's post or Butch's post until I finished mine -;(

Of course that's not to say that defensive excellence means that they should be in the HOF.


--- He has a son ("Druw") who is listed as a top prospect -- he too plays CF.

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

I'd say the same about Jim Edmonds!

[packs]

Jim Edmonds is a good name to bring up. His numbers best Jones (by a lot in batting average and OPS+) other than homers and RBIs and he has two less gloves but did win a championship. Difference in WAR is negligible too though in favor of Jones.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I'd say the same about Jim Edmonds!

Originally Posted by packs

Jim Edmonds is a good name to bring up. His numbers best Jones (by a lot in batting average and OPS+) other than homers and RBIs and he has two less gloves but did win a championship. Difference in WAR is negligible too though in favor of Jones.

Edmonds bothers me though. Not that he was a bad fielder, but I saw him make two many late jumps and bad judgements that he then rectified with an amazing play. He was diving on plays where his predecessor (White) would have just easily glided to the ball.

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Edmonds bothers me though. Not that he was a bad fielder, but I saw him make two many late jumps and bad judgements that he then rectified with an amazing play. He was diving on plays where his predecessor (White) would have just easily glided to the ball.

Maybe you saw plays I didn’t, but I didn’t se him making late jumps and bad reads. I saw the opposite. Edmonds played shallow centerfield on purpose, to shrink the outfield for hitters, having the confidence in his reactions and reads that he could get back on everything over him, which he did.

[packs]

I don't think it makes sense to compare Andruw Jones to Ozzie Smith vis a vis defense. Ozzie played shortstop. If you look at the shortstops elected to the HOF before him, aside from Wagner, Banks, and Arky Vaughan you have a mix of mostly light to average hitting but smooth fielding players: Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, Rabbit Maranville, Lou Boudreau, etc.

He was a better fielder than all of them, most of which made it into the HOF on their glove, so it only made sense he would be a HOFer too.

But Andruw Jones plays centerfield. I understand it's a pivotal position too, but it's not played by the same types of players. I don't need to go through the list of centerfielders in the HOF ahead of Andruw Jones.

I don't think he's a HOFer because he was a better fielder than them.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Maybe you saw plays I didn’t, but I didn’t se him making late jumps and bad reads. I saw the opposite. Edmonds played shallow centerfield on purpose, to shrink the outfield for hitters, having the confidence in his reactions and reads that he could get back on everything over him, which he did.

Disagree, i saw many bad plays and late jumps and bad reads.....some of the best amazing plays were as a result of initial bad read....of course not all the time he was a good to great fielder but i think his highlight reel makes people think he was better than he really was..... how would you compare his arm to Jones

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As much as I like stats I'm going to go unscientific and say if Andruw Jones' defense gets him in then I want Devon White in. He was the best centerfielder I saw personally.

Jones also hit 400+ homers, including 51 one year. He brought a lot to the table besides his defense.

[rats60]

TZR
Jones 253
White 133
Edmonds 80

dWAR
Jones 24.4
White 16.8
Edmonds .4

Jones was significantly better than White defensively and Edmonds was pretty average. It isn't just about making highlight plays (Edmonds and Griffey we're good at that), it is about range and catching balls that other players couldn't. Andruw Jones was the best defensive outfielder of all time and has a higher TZR than Ozzie Smith. If Ozzie's defense was good enough to elect him to the HOF, then Andruw Jones is a Hofer.

[Mozzie22]

Originally Posted by rats60

TZR
Jones 253
White 133
Edmonds 80

dWAR
Jones 24.4
White 16.8
Edmonds .4

Jones was significantly better than White defensively and Edmonds was pretty average. It isn't just about making highlight plays (Edmonds and Griffey we're good at that), it is about range and catching balls that other players couldn't. Andruw Jones was the best defensive outfielder of all time and has a higher TZR than Ozzie Smith. If Ozzie's defense was good enough to elect him to the HOF, then Andruw Jones is a Hofer.

Anyone that says Jim Edmonds was pretty average simply doesn't understand the game. Analytics be damned, Jim Edmonds was an exceptional defensive player, period.

As far as Jones goes, red flags and fireworks go off any time any ballplayer drops off the face of the planet as badly as he did statistically. You have to ask yourself how someone that good goes that bad so quickly.

Oh, and to compare Andruw Jones to Ozzie Smith defensively is futile. Ozzie Smith is the greatest defensive player in the history of baseball at any position.

[etsmith]

earlywynnfan, actually Biggio's 1844 runs scored is more impressive than his 3,000 hits. Only 18 players have managed to score over 1,800 runs, while there are 33 3,000 hit members.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by etsmith

earlywynnfan, actually Biggio's 1844 runs scored is more impressive than his 3,000 hits. Only 18 players have managed to score over 1,800 runs, while there are 33 3,000 hit members.

One of the reasons Biggio scored so many runs was that he hit 668 career doubles, which is 6th all time.

He also got hit by pitches at an alarming rate--285 in his career, which is 2 behind Hughie Jennings' career best. He got hit by 34 pitches in 1997 alone, a year in which he scored 146 runs.

And he stole over 400 bases in his career.