O/T - Juan Soto - 15 years/$765M with the Mets

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Why do you want it to fail?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why so hostile? It's just sports.

Probably because he perceives a direct correlation between skyrocketing payrolls and skyrocketing ticket prices,

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by John1941

Not really. In 2006 Neil deMause of Baseball Prospectus wrote an article called "Do High Salaries Lead to High Ticket Prices?" He found that the data showed that higher salaries do not lead to higher ticket prices: "in the first dozen years of free agency, as salaries more than tripled, ticket prices actually went down in inflation-adjusted dollars." Increased ticket prices after that point were due more to changes in stadiums than salaries.

deMause explained that tickets are priced for maximize revenue - if raise them above the optimal price, fewer people will buy tickets, and overall revenue will be reduced. "The price point you select for your tickets, then, shouldn't change [after signing some big-$ free agent]: If you're already charging the price that will bring in the most money, then raising ticket prices in response to increased player costs would be foolish. Conversely, if you think you can get away with charging more for tickets, you'd be foolish not to do so, regardless of what you're paying your players."

Of course, ticket prices can rise after big-$ free agents are signed- but that's because of increased demand, not because "those contracts must be paid for!"

The BP article only focuses on ticket prices, but the same reasoning is applicable to souvenirs, concessions, etc.

Whether real world ticket pricing is as straight-forward as all that is debatable, but those are the economic fundamentals at least.

Two things:

1. I wonder if deMause's research would still hold up now eighteen years later?

2. Moreover the perception that higher salaries lead to higher prices for fans is still there. This leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many fans. It's "Why should I support those multi-millionaires at the ball park out of my meager earnings? I'll leave that to somebody else." I'm that way. As ticket prices for big league sports have exploded, my attendance has dropped precipitously. I'm much more inclined now to attend junior and other minor league games instead.

[brian1961]

Juan believed he was entitled to a free suite at Yankee Stadium, whilst Derek Jeter and Aaron Judge pay for theirs. I guess that was the final straw that Brian Cashman decided was not going to fly. In essence, with all the money you'll be making, you can afford to pay for your own suite. Well said, and well decided, Mr. Cashman. If that's the state of Juan Soto's mentality, I say to the Mets, "YOU CAN HAVE 'EM!!!!!!!"

As for Soto, from now on, to me, he'll be known as

SEMI-SUITE SOTO. -- Brian Powell

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

When you're the most storied, dominant, successful, popular and valuable team in all of Major League Baseball... you have absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about lol

Originally Posted by brian1961

Juan believed he was entitled to a free suite at Yankee Stadium, whilst Derek Jeter and Aaron Judge pay for theirs. I guess that was the final straw that Brian Cashman decided was not going to fly. In essence, with all the money you'll be making, you can afford to pay for your own suite. Well said, and well decided, Mr. Cashman. If that's the state of Juan Soto's mentality, I say to the Mets, "YOU CAN HAVE 'EM!!!!!!!"

As for Soto, from now on, to me, he'll be known as

SEMI-SUITE SOTO. -- Brian Powell

Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel better, Yankee fans...

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Juan believed he was entitled to a free suite at Yankee Stadium, whilst Derek Jeter and Aaron Judge pay for theirs. I guess that was the final straw that Brian Cashman decided was not going to fly. In essence, with all the money you'll be making, you can afford to pay for your own suite. Well said, and well decided, Mr. Cashman.

I agree! A pox on Juan Soto, but a pox on the Yankees as well.

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Incidentally, will the Mets still be on the hook for roughly $51 million per year if they cut Soto or send him down to the minors?

But can anyone answer my question?

[brian1961]

Yeah, Bobby, I feel much better for saying to Mets fans, "YOU CAN HAVE 'EM!!!!!!!!" His thinking he deserved a free Yankee suite REALLY turned me off. It was not as if the Yanks' offer was a low-ball, chintzy amount. Semi-suite Soto really showed the inter-workings of his character during these negotiations. Sure, the Yanks will need to find someone to bat before Mr. Judge, but I think they eventually will.

So, Bobby, if your a Mets fan, I am happy for you. Be that as it may, with several King's ransoms to pay, the perceived expectations upon Semi-suite Soto will be off-the-charts. Semi-suite Soto got nothing but love and respect at Yankee Stadium, and this is how he returns it? Not to be a voice of doom, but Mets fans are not quiet and sheepish when they decide to voice their unhappiness...... --- Brian Powell

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

When you're the most storied, dominant, successful, popular and valuable team in all of Major League Baseball... you have absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about lol

Pretty sure they were more focused on trying to sign Soto than thinking about how it doesn’t matter in light of their 1920s World Series wins.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I disagree...

I never agreed with the Yanks batting Soto in front of Judge- as it had Judge in the 'protecting slot' - thereby actually putting more pressure on Judge whose protection became Stanton, a far streakier hitter than Soto.

Judge did get a lot more RBI opportunities, but, IMO, the order would have been stronger in Judge-Soto-Stanton order.

Soto is disciplined enough to get his walks regardless of position in the order, though hitting in front of Judge was better than hitting in front of Stanton.

.

.

Yeah, I stand by the statement that he made things easier for Judge... wherever he sat in the lineup.

Maybe they didn't win it all, but they don't make the World Series without Soto last year. Just like every other year before, when Judge, with a few occasional spurts from D.J. Lemahieu, Gleyber and Stanton and a few fly by nighters (Luke Voit, Matt Carpenter, etc..), had to carry the offense all by himself for the most part.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Yeah, Bobby, I feel much better for saying to Mets fans, "YOU CAN HAVE 'EM!!!!!!!!" His thinking he deserved a free Yankee suite REALLY turned me off. It was not as if the Yanks' offer was a low-ball, chintzy amount. Semi-suite Soto really showed the inter-workings of his character during these negotiations. Sure, the Yanks will need to find someone to bat before Mr. Judge, but I think they eventually will.

So, Bobby, if your a Mets fan, I am happy for you. Be that as it may, with several King's ransoms to pay, the perceived expectations upon Semi-suite Soto will be off-the-charts. Semi-suite Soto got nothing but love and respect at Yankee Stadium, and this is how he returns it? Not to be a voice of doom, but Mets fans are not quiet and sheepish when they decide to voice their unhappiness...... --- Brian Powell

You can also easily say that it's Yankees that were being cheap by not giving him a suite...Would George have given him the suite?

I have heard that Soto was turned off from the Yankees by an incident where stadium security kicked his family out of the clubhouse.

On the plus side, at least they're spending. Even though they're using the money for pitchers that they don't really need...

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by brian1961

So, Bobby, if your a Mets fan, I am happy for you. Be that as it may, with several King's ransoms to pay, the perceived expectations upon Semi-suite Soto will be off-the-charts. Semi-suite Soto got nothing but love and respect at Yankee Stadium, and this is how he returns it? Not to be a voice of doom, but Mets fans are not quiet and sheepish when they decide to voice their unhappiness...... --- Brian Powell

I dislike the Mets, love the Yanks.

However.

Soto may have received nothing but love and respect at Yankee Stadium. Mostly because he's not really a streaky hitter, and is a picture of consistency at what he does good.

but...

In his first (and only) year in Yankee Stadium, he witnessed Aaron Judge regularly getting mercilessly booed at Yankee Stadium for the 1st month of the season, when Judge was mired in a slump, before he broke out of it, and ended up having a somewhat historical regular season.

That's Aaron Judge! The most beloved figure in New York since Derek Jeter and Mark Messier.

What happens when the guy now getting paid MORE than Judge, and was NOT a homegrown hero, takes a statistical downturn or goes into a slump? Mets fans aren't any more acerbic then Yankees fans.

Also, the suite had nothing to do with nothing.

Cohen was going to outbid whoever, and that's what Scott Boras was whispering into Soto's ear. Leverage the Yankees, Dodgers and whoever else, and prove I'm the superstar agent everybody thinks I am...whether it makes me or you seem like a villain or not.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

But can anyone answer my question?

Like most baseball contracts, it is guaranteed, unless he opts out himself after 5 years to try and chase more money.

So yes, if he steps into a gopher hole in the outfield, runs head first into the dugout steps, falls into a bottomless sink hole, or develops a Rick James level coke habit or gets DFA'd down the the minors due to non-performance, the Mets are on the hook for it all (unless of course there's some type of sink hole or coke exception written into the contract that we don't know about yet).

[D. Bergin]

Oh....and owners raise the price of tickets. Not players.

Thought I needed to state the obvious.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I have heard that Soto was turned off from the Yankees by an incident where stadium security kicked his family out of the clubhouse.

What's the standard clubhouse policy of the Yankees? Are family members allowed?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

What's the standard clubhouse policy of the Yankees? Are family members allowed?

I'm not sure. Perhaps a question for one of our resident Yankee fans...

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by BRoberts

Steve Cohen collects only graded cards, by the way.

LOL

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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Two things:



1. I wonder if deMause's research would still hold up now eighteen years later?



2. Moreover the perception that higher salaries lead to higher prices for fans is still there. This leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many fans. It's "Why should I support those multi-millionaires at the ball park out of my meager earnings? I'll leave that to somebody else." I'm that way. As ticket prices for big league sports have exploded, my attendance has dropped precipitously. I'm much more inclined now to attend junior and other minor league games instead.

1. Of course it would.

2. Your behavior supports deMause. You are not willing to pay more just because owners' expenses are higher.

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[calvindog]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

You can also easily say that it's Yankees that were being cheap by not giving him a suite...Would George have given him the suite?

I have heard that Soto was turned off from the Yankees by an incident where stadium security kicked his family out of the clubhouse.

On the plus side, at least they're spending. Even though they're using the money for pitchers that they don't really need...

I’m a Dodgers fan first and Mets second, so I look at this wanting to dislike the Yankees; I thought trading Cortes for Williams and signing Fried were some nice moves. Getting rid of Cortes after that Game 1 GS has some added value.

[Balticfox]

Some of the Youtube comments are telling:

Originally Posted by d-man 117

soto is a punk, a thug, a bad attitude villain, and he sucks as an outsider. What in the heck are the Mets thinkin?

Originally Posted by peterrak9554

My buddy was head of security for the Padres and told me Soto’s family and entourage was the worst to deal with. Ridiculous demands and 100% catered treatment which is not in the slightest bit a priority. If they didn’t get it they through fits

I do the VIP executive protection at Raiders games and we don’t get that level of entitlement from high net worth VIPs who needless to say, have more value.

That kind of player, that kind of stuff, is a cancer in the locker room and steadily destroys a team. More MLB managers should have the gumption that Bobby Cox had when he took over the Toronto Blue Jays in 1982 and put an end to the silly contract perks. Cox was reported to have told Cliff Johnson and others "I don't care what your contract says. That horsecrap (personal limousine to the game rather than the team bus) ends right now if you want to play for this team."

[calvindog]

By all accounts, Soto was a model teammate with the Yankees and wherever he’s played. It’s a historic signing for the Mets and I just pray it doesn’t work out like most of the Mets’ big signings.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Some of the Youtube comments are telling:





That kind of player, that kind of stuff, is a cancer in the locker room and steadily destroys a team. More MLB managers should have the gumption that Bobby Cox had when he took over the Toronto Blue Jays in 1982 and put an end to the silly contract perks. Cox was reported to have told Cliff Johnson and others "I don't care what your contract says. That horsecrap (personal limousine to the game rather than the team bus) ends right now if you want to play for this team."

I'd like to see data backing up the oft asserted claims about locker room dissension impacting on field performance and, vice versa, the claims about players adding value because they were great "clubhouse leaders." There have certainly been dysfunctional winning teams.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Some of the Youtube comments are telling:





That kind of player, that kind of stuff, is a cancer in the locker room and steadily destroys a team. More MLB managers should have the gumption that Bobby Cox had when he took over the Toronto Blue Jays in 1982 and put an end to the silly contract perks. Cox was reported to have told Cliff Johnson and others "I don't care what your contract says. That horsecrap (personal limousine to the game rather than the team bus) ends right now if you want to play for this team."

So you're getting your news from YouTube comments?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

That kind of player, that kind of stuff, is a cancer in the locker room and steadily destroys a team. More MLB managers should have the gumption that Bobby Cox had when he took over the Toronto Blue Jays in 1982 and put an end to the silly contract perks. Cox was reported to have told Cliff Johnson and others "I don't care what your contract says. That horsecrap (personal limousine to the game rather than the team bus) ends right now if you want to play for this team."

How'd that work out for Bobby? A rep for Toronto underperforming while he was there and a 1st round exit the year they made the playoffs where they blew a 3-1 lead.

Seems weird to admire a guy who believes contracts shouldn't be honored.

[Writehooks]

$1 million per week. Every week. For 15 years. Nice.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by John1941

So you're getting your news from YouTube comments?

Preferable to certain others!

Originally Posted by Tabe

How'd that work out for Bobby? A rep for Toronto underperforming while he was there and a 1st round exit the year they made the playoffs where they blew a 3-1 lead.

A cheap and ill informed shot at Bobby Cox who took over the Blue Jays in 1982. He turned a sad sack club into a contender. Here are the Jays' numbers before, during and after the Cox era:

1981: 37-69 (7th)

1982: 78-84 (6th)
1983: 89-73 (4th)
1984: 89-73 (2nd)
1985: 99-62 (1st)

1986: 86-76 (4th)

Originally Posted by Tabe

Seems weird to admire a guy who believes contracts shouldn't be honored.

While the Blue Jays were obligated to honour the terms of the written contract and they would have, a manager fills out the lineup card. Cliff Johnson could have chosen to continue getting his limousine rides to Exhibition Stadium where his position would have been on the end of the bench. Or in Syracuse of the International League. His choice.

[packs]

I don't think managers are seen as the saviors they once were and I don't think they wield the kind of influence they once did either. If a manager wanted to attempt to assert their dominance and bench Soto for a family suite they would be shown the door the next day.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'd like to see data backing up the oft asserted claims about locker room dissension impacting on field performance and, vice versa, the claims about players adding value because they were great "clubhouse leaders." There have certainly been dysfunctional winning teams.

I'm not the first to say it, but the statisticians can confirm baseball is an individual sport disguised as a team sport.

[cgjackson222]

Only found a couple of studies on the subject and both say clubhouse chemistry is too subjective to measure: Baseball Therapy: How to Measure Clubhouse Chemistry by Russell A. Carleton in 2013 concluded that "Right now, we don't know, but I think we as sabermetricians do ourselves a disservice if we assume that chemistry doesn't matter"

Another study: "Can We Measure Clubhouse Chemistry?"
by Sky Andrecheck in 1999 stated: "So, if we assume that each player has a clubhouse contribution, with the mean centered at zero and a small standard deviation of about 0.2 wins, how much can clubhouse chemistry really affect the team's overall performance? Multiplying the SD by the square root of 25, we see that clubhouse chemistry would have a standard deviation of 1 win, meaning that the team with the worst chemistry in baseball will lose about 2 extra games because of it, while teams with the best chemistry gain about 2 extra wins. At least, that's the best estimate we have from looking at teams' behavior with regard to their personnel decisions.

The true value of chemistry is probably so difficult to determine, that it cannot be ascertained directly. If teams are under or over valuing clubhouse chemistry, then theoretically a team could take advantage by assembling an all-jerk team or an all good-guy team to take advantage of the inefficiency. However, by looking at teams' behavior, we have attempted to estimate at least what clubhouse attitude is currently valued at among major league teams. Is it valued correctly? For that, perhaps an even more subjective view is needed.

I always wondered if Cobb, Bonds, Albert Belle and others never winning World Series pointed to cancers in the clubhouse affecting performance. And by the way, I don't think Cobb was an evil person like some, but I believe Sam Crawford said he was not a great teammate.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by calvindog

By all accounts, Soto was a model teammate with the Yankees and wherever he’s played.

Oh?!

No Contact with Yankees Teammates

Plus evidently his relationship with Manny Machado of the Padres was "difficult".

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

If a manager wanted to attempt to assert their dominance and bench Soto for a family suite they would be shown the door the next day.

To the detriment of the game.



Soto better be opening up that suite to teammates' families as well.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Preferable to certain others!



A cheap and ill informed shot at Bobby Cox who took over the Blue Jays in 1982. He turned a sad sack club into a contender. Here are the Jays' numbers before, during and after the Cox era:

1981: 37-69 (7th)

1982: 78-84 (6th)
1983: 89-73 (4th)
1984: 89-73 (2nd)
1985: 99-62 (1st)

1986: 86-76 (4th)

Fun fact: a team can improve and underperform at the same time.

Also, winning 99 and then blowing a 3-1 lead is underperforming.

And it's not like his Braves teams had a rep for overachieving.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Fun fact: a team can improve and underperform at the same time.

And what then would be your objective measure for "underperformance"?

Originally Posted by Tabe

Also, winning 99 and then blowing a 3-1 lead is underperforming.

Fun fact. When two baseball teams play, one has to lose. And that's even when they're not two relatively evenly matched teams playing in the ALCS.

Originally Posted by Tabe

And it's not like his Braves teams had a rep for overachieving.

Like I say, it's tough to measure overachievement vs. underachievement. All that can be said is that Bobby Cox took over as the manager of the Atlanta Braves after they compiled a miserable 63-97 record and finished dead last in the National League in 1989. Under his management the Braves then compiled an enviable fourteen divisional championships plus a second place finish in the 1991-2005 period.

Look, are you just a Bobby Cox or an Atlanta Braves hater? If so, take it somewhere else. I haven't liked the Braves since they moved from Milwaukee and I'm therefore not inclined to defend them. Moreover I don't have the patience to deal with silliness.

[YankeeCollector]

He will be a DH in less than 3 years. They can have him!

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel better, Yankee fans...

Nothing I said was untrue.... absolutely nothing. Yankee haters... lol

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Nothing I said was untrue.... absolutely nothing. Yankee haters... lol

You said the Yankees "have nothing to be embarrassed about"...losing Soto to the Mets (after you gave up a haul of prospects for him and he carried you to the WS) is nothing if not embarrassing

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

You said the Yankees "have nothing to be embarrassed about"...losing Soto to the Mets (after you gave up a haul of prospects for him and he carried you to the WS) is nothing if not embarrassing

Haul? Who Michael King? Hope they enjoy him he's gone after this year. Pooping on that trade shows you're just a hater. That was perfectly fine to give up that "haul" lol



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[packs]

I agree. That trade put the Yankees in the World Series. Michael King is a nice player but I think you trade him for a chance at a title every time.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

You said the Yankees "have nothing to be embarrassed about"...losing Soto to the Mets (after you gave up a haul of prospects for him and he carried you to the WS) is nothing if not embarrassing

Hardly. lol Things like this happen to all teams at times, but no teams have the accolades I mentioned that the Yankees do.... no teams.
So AGAIN, they have nothing to be embarrassed about.

[packs]

The Yankees very rarely trade someone who is actually good. The only player in recent memory I can think of who began their career as a Yankees prospect and went on to have a solid career after they traded him is Alfonso Soriano, and they traded him for A-Rod.

The Yankees have traded a ton of hyped prospects over the years, guys like Nick Johnson, Jesus Montero, Austin Jackson, etc. They are typically players it was wise to trade.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Haul? Who Michael King? Hope they enjoy him he's gone after this year. Pooping on that trade shows you're just a hater. That was perfectly fine to give up that "haul" lol Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

You missed my point. The trade itself was fine, but we both know the Yankees wanted badly for him to stay. In fact, the trade worked out almost as well as it could have for them, and he still chose to leave. Their embarrassment is why they went and massively overpaid Max Fried right afterwards.

Also, I can do without the ad hom attacks: "you're a this, you're a that." Grow up

[packs]

Come on now. They did not overpay Max Fried and Max Fried's signing was not related to Soto walking. The Yankees needed a starter with or without Soto, just like they need a first baseman.

A reminder that the Red Sox gave Aroldis Chapman 10.75 million to not even close out games.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Hardly. lol Things like this happen to all teams at times, but no teams have the accolades I mentioned that the Yankees do.... no teams.
So AGAIN, they have nothing to be embarrassed about.

The championships from decades ago don't matter to anyone except Yankees employees and fans. Losing Soto under the circumstances to your crosstown rival (whose roster isn't even as good) would be embarrassing to any franchise, but it's especially so for the Yankees, who fancy themselves the top franchise in NY.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

Come on now. They did not overpay Max Fried and Max Fried's signing was not related to Soto walking. The Yankees needed a starter with or without Soto, just like they need a first baseman.

A reminder that the Red Sox gave Aroldis Chapman 10.75 million to not even close out games.

8 years and $200 million to a 30-year old pitcher? I can't believe that will work out well. Also, it's left handed hitting that they need, not more starters...

I'm not going to defend that Chapman signing either...but at least it's only one year.

[packs]

Nathan Eovaldi is 5 years older than Fried and will make 25 million a year for the next three years.

It is not overpaying in this market. If you want to sign a starter, that is the price.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

Nathan Eovaldi is 5 years older than Fried and will make 25 million a year for the next three years.

It is not overpaying in this market. If you want to sign a starter, that is the price.

Were they bidding against anyone else?

[packs]

Were there other teams who wanted to sign a 30 year old lefty coming off an All Star season? Why wouldn't there be?

Kikuchi signed a three year deal for 63 million all because he pitched 60 good innings for the Astros last year after pitching 115 bad ones with Toronto.

Whether or not Fried is good for the next 8 years doesn't really come into play when you're talking about what the market is for a starter. You will pay near his price to sign even mediocre pitchers who are older than him.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

8 years and $200 million to a 30-year old pitcher? I can't believe that will work out well. Also, it's left handed hitting that they need, not more starters...



I'm not going to defend that Chapman signing either...but at least it's only one year.

I'm not even sure you watch baseball after these last few comments but I urge you to do so this season.

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[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

I'm not even sure you watch baseball after these last few comments but I urge you to do so this season.

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I watch more baseball than I care to admit! I saw Max Fried pitch several times in person this past year. He's very good. I still think they Yankees overpaid for him. And I think Eovaldi is overpaid too.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Speaking of their need for left handed hitting...

https://x.com/JeffPassan/status/1869136879406510591

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Speaking of their need for left handed hitting...

https://x.com/JeffPassan/status/1869136879406510591

They just resolved that problem.

As others have said, Soto's departure is a blessing for the Yankees.

[sports-cards-forever]

Hard to believe that Soto left the Yankees just because Mets offered him a suite for his family and the Yankees didn't