Mastro and Allen Indicted

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Griffins

He used his one call on that?

I'm in the "and I broke out in extreme laughter club" too .

[lharri3600]

They should be!

Originally Posted by e107collector

the article states that mastro didn't disclose that the t206 wagner was altered by cutting it from the sheet, however, psa graded the card as an 8.

I wonder if psa will be investigated to see how that happened?

Tony

[lharri3600]

knowing psa they will stand by it. didn't the guy who graded the card state it was trimmed?

Originally Posted by travrosty

I think the phrase about the Wagner being trimmed and Mastro allegedly knowing this would only be part of the investigation and indictment release if the Feds have a plan to prove it was trimmed, otherwise why mention it? If they can prove it was trimmed, I think psa is in a conundrum. Would they then have to admit it is an "Authentic" or would they still stand by an 8? Would the Wagner get subpoenaed? That would be something.

[ruth-gehrig]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=154464

[lharri3600]

oh boy,
here we go with the charity religious song and dance!

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mastro, the founder of Mastro Auctions and the brother of Randy Mastro, Rudy Giuliani's former deputy mayor and longtime aide, was charged with one count of wire and mail fraud. His attorney, Michael Monico, said he expects the case will be resolved without a trial, indicating that Mastro is cooperating with authorities.

Mastro dropped out of the hobby in 2009, after he shut down Mastro Auctions, which once generated as much as $50 million a year in sales. He sold his legendary memorabilia collection in 2010.

"Bill accepts responsibility for the actions that led to this case," Monico said. "For many years, Bill has dedicated himself to religious and charitable works."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...#ixzz21gsqbCBq

[base_ball]

Didn't see it posted, so here is a link to a raw copy the indictment:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/c...pr0725_01a.pdf

[lharri3600]

lmao

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

For those of you not familiar with these individuals, here are two informative articles:

http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...tml?artid=4511

http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...tml?artid=4763

"Article not found."

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"Article not found."

That's odd. The articles were there yesterday. I'm sure PSA is just experiencing a server glitch. Like that glitch in Russia where Trotsky disappeared from all the photos.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hick0088/clas...101/false.html

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"Article not found."

Hmm. That is strange. Try this link:

http://www.psacard.com/SiteSearch.ch...UTF-8&q=mastro

[travrosty]

He does seem to be religious, as evident of this part of the indictment.

i.
Beginning no later than in or about 2001 and continuing until at least in or about December 2008, defendant MASTRO placed shill bids, and caused others to place shill bids, using several accounts, including defendant MASTRO’s account, a fictitious account, Mastro Auctions’ corporate bidding account, employee accounts, and accounts in the names of defendant MASTRO’s family members, a priest, and others.

[wonkaticket]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1121644

I was shocked to see Peter Nash’s name in the article isn’t the author aware Peter is trying to make the hobby a better place?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

I just received a voice mail from Doug Allen stating the Driers don't have a financial interest in Legendary. I apologize if I made an error in my previous statement.

Unless Doug is hooked up to a polygraph machine, any statement he makes is presumed to be false and an effort to steal more of our money.

[wonkaticket]

One bright side of this mess is at least next year’s National finding dealers/auction houses booths should be a simple process.



"Can I see that Cobb item?" Buyer

"Open up 23!" Guard

[turtleguy64]

does PSA get off the hook in this ? For years collectors have felt that PSA was quite liberal in grading Mastronet submitted collectibles.Hard to prove ,just conjecture.How many of you guys think that Joe Orlando gets entangled in this fiasco ?

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

One bright side of this mess is at least next year’s National finding dealers/auction houses booths should be a simple process.



"Can I see that Cobb item?" Buyer

"Open up 23!" Guard

John,

That's funny!!

Tony

[Runscott]

I don't see how PSA can avoid it, but Peter and Jeff should have insights.

[calvindog]

I don't have any personal knowledge but I suspect Joe Orlando gave all the info he has on this issue to the prosecutors. And if any of it was valuable he most likely testified in the grand jury. At some point the full truth wil come out which is good for us, not so good for Doug and Bill.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I don't see how PSA can avoid it, but Peter and Jeff should have insights.

PSA may just play ostrich, that has worked for them before. Surely it can't admit it knowingly slabbed a trimmed card, but the alternative -- saying it made a mistake on the first and most important card it ever graded -- isn't very palatable either.

I suppose it could try to distance itself from Bill Hughes, claim that it never would have condoned what he did if it had known the card was trimmed, and emphasize that Hughes only was at PSA a short time.

I suppose it depends in part on Bill's story, assuming he tells it. If he implicates David Hall, that doesn't create very much wiggle room.

[calvindog]

I suspect Joe told the Feds the truth about card -- I don't believe he's been charged with lying to a federal officer. I suspect Joe is praying this case doesn't go to trial.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I suspect Joe told the Feds the truth about card -- I don't believe he's been charged with lying to a federal officer. I suspect Joe is praying this case doesn't go to trial.

Whether it does or not PSA has a public relations issue on their hands. They can keep talk off the CU board, but that won't be enough, especially with the National coming up, etc.

[calvindog]

I think you forget you're talking about Joe Orlando. He'd rather eat thumbtacks than tell the truth publicly about that card. In a grand jury under oath? Different story.

[Jay Wolt]

The Wagner was the 1st card PSA graded. I wonder how many current employees (Incl Joe O.) were even at PSA?
So I doub't anyone has 1st hand knowledge of the slabbing.
So perhaps the feds need to talk to Hughes, Rochhi or anyone that was working there 15 years ago or so.

[calvindog]

Just because he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what happened with the card doesn't mean he's unaware of what occurred. It would be nice for PSA to tell the truth about it publicly. Eventually it will come out and eventually the present owner might want compensation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

The Wagner was the 1st card PSA graded. I wonder how many current employees (Incl Joe O.) were even at PSA?
So I doub't anyone has 1st hand knowledge of the slabbing.
So perhaps the feds need to talk to Hughes, Rochhi or anyone that was working there 15 years ago or so.

I think Steve Rocchi came later, as did Mike Baker and Joe. Probably David Hall is the only holdover.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Just because he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what happened with the card doesn't mean he's unaware of what occurred. It would be nice for PSA to tell the truth about it publicly. Eventually it will come out and eventually the present owner might want compensation.

Jeff,

Do you know how a situation like that may be handled? If Ken wants his money back for the card, and PSA gives it to him, does he have to turn the card over to PSA at that point? Does he get the money and keep the card?
Just curious.

Tony

[three25hits]

I had a PSA card that was mis-graded. I got full payment, they kept the card.

[ruth-gehrig]

Has everyone already seen this but me?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's from an old Lipset auction. What about it?

[ruth-gehrig]

Just something I've never seen before. Circumstantial evidence at a minimum; perhaps more? Wasn't it always speculated that Mastro had the card cut? If so why is Lipset selling it uncut??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Just something I've never seen before. Circumstantial evidence at a minimum; perhaps more? Wasn't it always speculated that Mastro had the card cut? If so why is Lipset selling it uncut??

I thought the Lipset one was the so-called Jumbo Wagner that ended up in a 5MC holder, but I could be wrong. I have never heard that Alan Ray -- who owned the raw PSA 8 before Mastro bought it -- got it from Lipset. I thought the known chain of custody ended with him.

[ruth-gehrig]

Ok Thanks! That does make more sense. I'm sure others will chime in on this as well.

[barrysloate]

Peter- I believe that card is currently in the Hall of Fame. The "jumbo Wagner" is a different example.

I feel that the current owner of the PSA 8 Wagner should get substantial compensation, and then I think PSA should take it back and relabel it "AUTH". Once they do that it's a perfectly marketable card at any time with a spectacular eye appeal. Plus, it will finally be properly graded. If all this information becomes public it can't remain in an 8 holder.

[ruth-gehrig]

So when Lipset stated "probably the finest copy known to exist", he was unaware of the Wagner Lifson/Mastro bought? What happened to the Plank that was listed in ex-mt and Lajoie near mint??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Peter- I believe that card is currently in the Hall of Fame. The "jumbo Wagner" is a different example.

I feel that the current owner of the PSA 8 Wagner should get substantial compensation, and then I think PSA should take it back and relabel it "AUTH". Once they do that it's a perfectly marketable card at any time with a spectacular eye appeal. Plus, it will finally be properly graded. If all this information becomes public it can't remain in an 8 holder.

Ah thanks Barry. I have seen the HOF one but I don't recall it being particularly oversize. It was quite some time ago though.

How does PSA explain itself if it does that? Does it blame Bill Hughes? Fall on its sword and say our bad?

[bh3443]

Any one else see this video "Wagner testing".......... think it's from the Cobb/Edwards card.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gItjwny1Zk

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Jeff,

Do you know how a situation like that may be handled? If Ken wants his money back for the card, and PSA gives it to him, does he have to turn the card over to PSA at that point? Does he get the money and keep the card?
Just curious.

Tony

Tony, the owner could theoretically get his money back for his card but not be permitted to keep it as well. Or he could just be paid compensation for the difference in value of an 8 and an AUTH (albeit pristine) Wagner. In either case, Joe would probably have to give up buying hair dye for a few years.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by calvindog

In either case, Joe would probably have to give up buying hair dye for a few years.

Hmmmm. And all this time I thought it was natural.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by base_ball

Didn't see it posted, so here is a link to a raw copy the indictment:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/c...pr0725_01a.pdf

Thanks for posting this.

[RUSH2112]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Peter- I believe that card is currently in the Hall of Fame. The "jumbo Wagner" is a different example.

I feel that the current owner of the PSA 8 Wagner should get substantial compensation, and then I think PSA should take it back and relabel it "AUTH". Once they do that it's a perfectly marketable card at any time with a spectacular eye appeal. Plus, it will finally be properly graded. If all this information becomes public it can't remain in an 8 holder.

Is it possible the card may be worth more in it's original PSA 8 holder?

The slab is what makes the card infamous or famous, whichever you prefer and the developing story makes it more interesting to collectors as each day passes. Afterall, this is the card everyone is talking about, not the other ones that are technically a better grade.

[barrysloate]

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

[e107collector]

Let's say that the PSA 8 Wagner gets reholdered to a PSA Auth slab.

What is the next best Wagner available at that point? PSA 5?

Tony

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by e107collector

The article states that Mastro didn't disclose that the T206 Wagner was altered by cutting it from the sheet, however, PSA graded the card as an 8.

I wonder if PSA will be investigated to see how that happened?

Tony

I would hope that something is now done about the misrepresented Wagner card, and the company that made its name off of grading it.
This whole story is shameful

[atx840]

According to Legendary

1. PSA NM-MT 8: Bill Mastro → Jim Copeland → Wayne Gretzky/Bruce McNall → Mike Gidwitz/Rob Lifson → Brian Siegel → Private Investor

2. Borderline NM (and oversized): Lew Lipset → Mastro → Barry Halper → Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown

3. EX+ or slightly better (with strong corners): Richard Gelman → Corey Shanus

4. PSA EX 5: Leland’s → Mastro → Scott Ireland

5. PSA EX 5 MC (“jumbo”-sized): Mastro → John Rogers

6. EX: Mastro → Dr. Robert Goode → Mark Macrae

7. EX: Larry Fritsch

8. VG-EX 4: The Dreier Collection

9. EX appearance (but adhered to an album page): Jefferson Burdick → Metropolitan Museum of Art.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by exhibitman

allegedly...

Anyhow, it's not like being a convicted felon has ever prevented anyone from running an auction house. If memory serves me well, that is. Or am i driving in the wrong lane?

lol !

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by turtleguy64

does PSA get off the hook in this ? For years collectors have felt that PSA was quite liberal in grading Mastronet submitted collectibles.Hard to prove ,just conjecture.How many of you guys think that Joe Orlando gets entangled in this fiasco ?

now that would really cause a stir in our hobby

[turtleguy64]

Tom, get your hands on a copy of The Card.That will give you enlightenment to the background in this case.I just got it from a friend and after reading it,it changed how i look at this hobby.

[esd10]

all i can say is wow and what is psa going to do? refund the money these people spent on the wagner? so its a a psa auth because it has been altered.

[esd10]

the book the card shed alot of light on the t206 wagner and was a great read

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Griffins

He used his one call on that?

Now that's funny!!