SGC Going Away?

[Yoda]

Think of all the competing snack brands that Pepsi Co. has on offer.

[toledo_mudhen]

and my initial foray into the "alternative" universe.......

I don't Hate It

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

and my initial foray into the "alternative" universe.......

I don't Hate It

Nice to see they ditched the inner sleeve. This is a much better presentation. Hope they eventually thrive.

[JollyElm]

No one knows what's going to happen right now, but we need to remember that "the business of business is business."

Whatever helps PSA's bottom line the most will ultimately be the biggest factor in their decision-making.

[Snowman]

Collectors is still investing money into the SGC brand. They are making improvements on the backend database and hiring more graders while the vacuous halfwits on YouTube and Blowhard sound their false alarms.

Collectors will continue to keep SGC around as long as the hobby continues to demand their services. Why? Because they'd be stupid not to. They know that a significant percentage of loyal SGC customers would take their business to CGC, BVG, or MBA instead, and that could open the door for someone like Fanatics to scoop them up and start chipping away at the PSA market share. A lot of these customers grade with SGC because they don't like PSA, and them shutting down SGC isn't going to change that. Keeping SGC in play gives PSA a moat. And they can't just steal all their graders without creating a new PSA location in Florida because most of those guys aren't going to move across the country so they can grade cards in LA or New Jersey.

As long as SGC continues to thrive (and they very much are - they even had to increase their turnaround times recently because they're swamped), Collectors will keep keep them open because their added value as an alternative grading option far exceeds the value that they would get from stealing their graders and offering crossover specials.

[The Nasty Nati]

I’ve actually seen PSA slabs with the Lionel Carter collection designation. So at some point someone crossed those SGC slabs to PSA, and PSA kept the provenance.

Originally Posted by ZiggerZagger

Scott -- great point. This is what a few collecting friends and I were spitballing last year as well.

Could easily see PSA offering a window for folks to get their SGC cards crossed over to PSA holders at grade -- probably coinciding with PSA formally shutting down new SGC submissions at some point.
"We recognize the rigorous historical standards of SGC grading are in line with our own here at PSA, etc, etc, etc.", and no charge if an SGC slab does not cross. Great moneymaker, and a way to refocus collectors to a new reality with TPG.

I'm probably 95% PSA in my collection, and would cross most of the rest if offered the chance to do so affordably. That is despite positive memories and experiences grading with and working with SGC in the past.
That said, I'd feel compelled to keep my T206 Lionel Carter Cobb and a T227 Charles Nagy Cobb in their original SGC holders. There would be something not right in my mind with failing to respect that provenance and history with SGC.
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[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Collectors is still investing money into the SGC brand. They are making improvements on the backend database and hiring more graders while the vacuous halfwits on YouTube and Blowhard sound their false alarms.

Collectors will continue to keep SGC around as long as the hobby continues to demand their services. Why? Because they'd be stupid not to. They know that a significant percentage of loyal SGC customers would take their business to CGC, BVG, or MBA instead, and that could open the door for someone like Fanatics to scoop them up and start chipping away at the PSA market share. A lot of these customers grade with SGC because they don't like PSA, and them shutting down SGC isn't going to change that. Keeping SGC in play gives PSA a moat. And they can't just steal all their graders without creating a new PSA location in Florida because most of those guys aren't going to move across the country so they can grade cards in LA or New Jersey.

As long as SGC continues to thrive (and they very much are - they even had to increase their turnaround times recently because they're swamped), Collectors will keep keep them open because their added value as an alternative grading option far exceeds the value that they would get from stealing their graders and offering crossover specials.

Agreed 110%

[GeoPoto]

I will be surprised if PSA keeps SGC going indefinitely. Surely, they are working towards merging whatever management, administration, logistics, grading, and slabbing functions aren't already merged. That would be Aquisitions 101. The tipping point will arrive when the IT department is ready to add SGC-graded cards to the registry. Operating two businesses that do essentially the same thing can't make sense. SGC-style slabs may become an option to appease tuxedo aficionados, but grading standards, customer service, and anything else users care about will become one and the same, if they haven't already.

[notfast]

Seems like a lot of people commenting would have their heads explode if they knew what brands nestle, proctor and gamble and Johnson and Johnson owned.

[ZiggerZagger]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

I’ve actually seen PSA slabs with the Lionel Carter collection designation. So at some point someone crossed those SGC slabs to PSA, and PSA kept the provenance.

Thanks for that Ben! I hadn't seen that previously myself, but makes good sense.

I'll prefer to keep such cards in the original SGC holders, just given the documented history of those cards being turned over to SGC -- but 100% to each their own.
Glad that historical provenance is not being lost with the crossover process.

As the Net54 saying goes, every thread needs a card (or two). Both were an absolute joy to add many years back now.
I can't tell if the Nagy reeks of cigarette smoke through the slab, sadly
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[Jay Wolt]

Jason those are great cards
I had 1 of the Lionel Carter T206 Cobb's...Wish I still had it

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Collectors is still investing money into the SGC brand. They are making improvements on the backend database and hiring more graders while the vacuous halfwits on YouTube and Blowhard sound their false alarms.

Collectors will continue to keep SGC around as long as the hobby continues to demand their services. Why? Because they'd be stupid not to. They know that a significant percentage of loyal SGC customers would take their business to CGC, BVG, or MBA instead, and that could open the door for someone like Fanatics to scoop them up and start chipping away at the PSA market share. A lot of these customers grade with SGC because they don't like PSA, and them shutting down SGC isn't going to change that. Keeping SGC in play gives PSA a moat. And they can't just steal all their graders without creating a new PSA location in Florida because most of those guys aren't going to move across the country so they can grade cards in LA or New Jersey.

As long as SGC continues to thrive (and they very much are - they even had to increase their turnaround times recently because they're swamped), Collectors will keep keep them open because their added value as an alternative grading option far exceeds the value that they would get from stealing their graders and offering crossover specials.

Hard to disagree with any of this.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by notfast

Seems like a lot of people commenting would have their heads explode if they knew what brands nestle, proctor and gamble and Johnson and Johnson owned.

how about the most terrifying phrase of the 1980's. Backfired spectacularly because it freaked people out. At the end of half of every TV commercial - "We're Beatrice"

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Collectors is still investing money into the SGC brand. They are making improvements on the backend database and hiring more graders while the vacuous halfwits on YouTube and Blowhard sound their false alarms.

Collectors will continue to keep SGC around as long as the hobby continues to demand their services. Why? Because they'd be stupid not to. They know that a significant percentage of loyal SGC customers would take their business to CGC, BVG, or MBA instead, and that could open the door for someone like Fanatics to scoop them up and start chipping away at the PSA market share. A lot of these customers grade with SGC because they don't like PSA, and them shutting down SGC isn't going to change that. Keeping SGC in play gives PSA a moat. And they can't just steal all their graders without creating a new PSA location in Florida because most of those guys aren't going to move across the country so they can grade cards in LA or New Jersey.

As long as SGC continues to thrive (and they very much are - they even had to increase their turnaround times recently because they're swamped), Collectors will keep keep them open because their added value as an alternative grading option far exceeds the value that they would get from stealing their graders and offering crossover specials.

Well said and I hope you're right.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by edhans

Well said and I hope you're right.

Yup
Agreed

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[raulus]

I suspect the goons who start these rumors do it primarily because of the delicious reactions they elicit.

So congrats to all of us for not feeding the trolls.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

how about the most terrifying phrase of the 1980's. Backfired spectacularly because it freaked people out. At the end of half of every TV commercial - "We're Beatrice"

Haha, "We're Beatrice" was freaky indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV5Mb_zZPPs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gch72L5vJPA

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Haha, "We're Beatrice" was freaky indeed.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV5Mb_zZPPs



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gch72L5vJPA

Oh yeah as if it wasn't already weird enough, here came that freakin clown! As a kid I remember wondering who Beatrice was and why she was a we.

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[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I will be surprised if PSA keeps SGC going indefinitely. Surely, they are working towards merging whatever management, administration, logistics, grading, and slabbing functions aren't already merged. That would be Aquisitions 101. The tipping point will arrive when the IT department is ready to add SGC-graded cards to the registry. Operating two businesses that do essentially the same thing can't make sense. SGC-style slabs may become an option to appease tuxedo aficionados, but grading standards, customer service, and anything else users care about will become one and the same, if they haven't already.

PSA doesn't own SGC. Collectors owns PSA and SGC, two separate companies. This wasn't a merger. So "Aquisitions 101" [sic] doesn't apply. And as several have pointed out in this thread, it would make no sense for Collectors to kill one of their brands.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

PSA doesn't own SGC. Collectors owns PSA and SGC, two separate companies. This wasn't a merger. So "Aquisitions 101" [sic] doesn't apply. And as several have pointed out in this thread, it would make no sense for Collectors to kill one of their brands.

If the cost savings of consolidating the brands into the larger brand outweighs any revenue loss, then it makes sense. Since we don't know either side of the equation, who can say?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the cost savings of consolidating the brands into the larger brand outweighs any revenue loss, then it makes sense. Since we don't know either side of the equation, who can say?

A lot of collectors are very loyal to one or the other. Higher resale prices with PSA (real or perceived,) or the "tuxedo" look of SGC. If they try to run a calculation to determine whether loyalty among SGC customers would automatically transfer to PSA, I think they'll conclude, probably not. At, least, too questionable to risk.

[Lorewalker]

Lots of interesting thoughts and points here but some are posting like they are an insider at Collectors and it is truly hilarious. Unless of course one of you is actually Nat.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

A lot of collectors are very loyal to one or the other. Higher resale prices with PSA (real or perceived,) or the "tuxedo" look of SGC. If they try to run a calculation to determine whether loyalty among SGC customers would automatically transfer to PSA, I think they'll conclude, probably not. At, least, too questionable to risk.

It's a question of degree, right? I think most would reluctantly grade with PSA because there's really nowhere else to go any more. But that's just my best guess.

[Neal]

Collectors could kill both brands and then come out with a Collectors slab. No one knows .... again, this started with a few youtu.be content creators

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[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the cost savings of consolidating the brands into the larger brand outweighs any revenue loss, then it makes sense. Since we don't know either side of the equation, who can say?

While I agree none of us have insider information, I don't believe it's as simple as a cost savings/revenue loss calculation. There is more that goes into the decision than that.

[Mark17]

What we should see is a combined registry.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

What we should see is a combined registry.

This is being worked on right now

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is being worked on right now

lol

[Lucas00]

I'm sure Travis has insider information like he does with other information from his billionaire friends.

Sarcasm aside, I don't like the idea. And if it ever was a thing (and I'm 99% sure it will never be) it probably wouldn't be in this decade lol.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

These content creators love to hear themselves talk. One guy with a pretty good following makes 40 minute videos seemingly every other day to make the simplest point imaginable. I can only imagine how his wife tolerates him. What an angel she must be.

Not to make this about YouTube but I've thougt the same thing about this same YouTube channel. I've stopped watching pretty much all of them as it's just the same thing, rinse and repeat on every channel of the YouTube circle of friends.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

I'm sure Travis has insider information like he does with other information from his billionaire friends.

Sarcasm aside, I don't like the idea. And if it ever was a thing (and I'm 99% sure it will never be) it probably wouldn't be in this decade lol.

There are huge numbers of PSA loyalists who dominate the set registry, I'd be very surprised if PSA did this just to appease a relatively small segment of SGC collectors.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is being worked on right now

Any projected date on this? I have heard about this since the acquisition.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'd settle for SGC's Pop report making some sense. I dare you to try and figure out the population for a given T207 card. They have the set listed like 7 different ways with no indicator if any of those is a comprehensive listing. There's a radio button to click within each of these to "show old grades" whatever the hell that means. So you're looking at over a dozen different reports.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Any projected date on this? I have heard about this since the acquisition.

The 12th of Never.

[jbsports33]

What we need is separation from all the game cards and modern stuff – and SGC is the only thing close we vintage collectors/dealers have right now. I try and deal with both PSA and SGC, honestly, it’s hard to just pick one. PSA is taking too long to get back, so SGC benefits too and now there are delays for SGC grading cards again.

It’s just nuts sometimes and delays me from getting cards out to collectors at shows that want cards graded. I am seeing an increase in sales for raw cards now, some collectors are passing on graded altogether at some shows. Maybe it’s just the modern card effect that is changing the vintage hobby at least at local shows.

Larger shows I get the interest in more vintage graded cards!
Snowman (Travis) posted the best response! and how many of us have used
SGC for over 20 years, I am guessing it’s many many of us old timers that are members of Net54.

Happy Collecting!
Jimmy

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Not to make this about YouTube but I've thougt the same thing about this same YouTube channel. I've stopped watching pretty much all of them as it's just the same thing, rinse and repeat on every channel of the YouTube circle of friends.

This x 1000!

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[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

PSA doesn't own SGC. Collectors owns PSA and SGC, two separate companies. This wasn't a merger. So "Aquisitions 101" [sic] doesn't apply. And as several have pointed out in this thread, it would make no sense for Collectors to kill one of their brands.

You make a valid point. Acquisitions 101 was misplayed. In the long run, I would expect a merger. But, I would have to agree that the long term could be a long time.

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[raulus]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

You make a valid point. Acquisitions 101 was misplayed. In the long run, I would expect a merger. But, I would have to agree that the long term could be a long time.

And maybe all of this talk will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A know-nothing blogger mouths off, and it injects the smallest doubt whether the brand will continue long-term, so would-be submitters send in less stuff, or at least delay sending in stuff for a few months. The monthly reports for stuff graded show that SGC grades less and less stuff each month. SGC lays off a few people, and the news gets out the SGC is laying people off. Grading times extend.

The trend snowballs, takes on a life of its own, and eventually they pull the plug. Maybe it takes a few years, but once the doubt sets in, it's hard to turn the corner.

So I guess if you love SGC, it's your obligation, nay duty, to crack all of your existing SGC stuff and re-submit it again to keep those numbers up. Or at least to find more and more raw stuff to grade each month to keep the good times rolling.

[MJRaider]

I found the Vintage YouTube community fairly interesting a year ago but man has it just become an echo chamber of the same old guys, saying the same old things, and including only the same old people.

Except Southern Collector, I like him. But he's already starting to sound like the rest of them.

But you better spend thousands of dollars on cards on a monthly basis or your collection isn't interesting and clearly you are poor.

[Snowcat]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

PSA doesn't own SGC. Collectors owns PSA and SGC, two separate companies. This wasn't a merger. So "Aquisitions 101" [sic] doesn't apply. And as several have pointed out in this thread, it would make no sense for Collectors to kill one of their brands.

^ this. Collectors is a parent company. A parent company that plans to further expand into the collectibles space through new launches and acquisitions.

Don't forget, content creators rely on engagement.

[sammythunder]

Originally Posted by MJRaider

I found the Vintage YouTube community fairly interesting a year ago but man has it just become an echo chamber of the same old guys, saying the same old things, and including only the same old people.

Except Southern Collector, I like him. But he's already starting to sound like the rest of them.

But you better spend thousands of dollars on cards on a monthly basis or your collection isn't interesting and clearly you are poor.

As a collector with a channel, I understand your perspective and really make an attempt to try and bring on different collectors on a weekly basis for collaborations. It's one way to keep things fresh and new. The livestream I do on Thursdays with my buddy Jason called Cardboard & Cold Ones bring on a different collector with a YouTube channel each week. I'm always open to feedback on how I can avoid being monotonous with my videos.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by raulus

So I guess if you love SGC, it's your obligation, nay duty, to crack all of your existing SGC stuff and re-submit it again to keep those numbers up.

That’s a bit ridiculous, don’t you think?

Originally Posted by raulus

Or at least to find more and more raw stuff to grade each month to keep the good times rolling.

That’s a little more reasonable.

[MJRaider]

Originally Posted by sammythunder

As a collector with a channel, I understand your perspective and really make an attempt to try and bring on different collectors on a weekly basis for collaborations. It's one way to keep things fresh and new. The livestream I do on Thursdays with my buddy Jason called Cardboard & Cold Ones bring on a different collector with a YouTube channel each week. I'm always open to feedback on how I can avoid being monotonous with my videos.

Thanks, Sammy! I will check it out.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by MJRaider

I found the Vintage YouTube community fairly interesting a year ago but man has it just become an echo chamber of the same old guys, saying the same old things, and including only the same old people.

Except Southern Collector, I like him. But he's already starting to sound like the rest of them.

But you better spend thousands of dollars on cards on a monthly basis or your collection isn't interesting and clearly you are poor.

Lmaooooo

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

I'm sure Travis has insider information like he does with other information from his billionaire friends.

Sarcasm aside, I don't like the idea. And if it ever was a thing (and I'm 99% sure it will never be) it probably wouldn't be in this decade lol.

Nat Turner said it himself. Multiple times. They're working on it, but it's not the top priority. No, we're not friends.

I've also seen evidence of that being true by witnessing changes to the backend data on how certain cards are being identified to align with how PSA identifies them. One example is the 1929 Churchman's Babe Ruth. SGC used to put Ruth's name on the flip. They no longer do.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'd settle for SGC's Pop report making some sense. I dare you to try and figure out the population for a given T207 card. They have the set listed like 7 different ways with no indicator if any of those is a comprehensive listing. There's a radio button to click within each of these to "show old grades" whatever the hell that means. So you're looking at over a dozen different reports.

These are the key issues to watch our for. When you see these pop reports being consolidated for sets like this, you'll know they're getting closer to launching the SGC registry and/or a combined registry.

Also when you start seeing high grade vintage SGC slabs selling well above comps (SGC 9s and 10s). That will be an indicator that someone in the know is anticipating a combined registry to show up soon.

I don't know if they'll ever finish it and actually launch it. I just know Nat Turner says they're working on it and he discussed some of the challenges involved.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sammythunder

As a collector with a channel, I understand your perspective and really make an attempt to try and bring on different collectors on a weekly basis for collaborations. It's one way to keep things fresh and new. The livestream I do on Thursdays with my buddy Jason called Cardboard & Cold Ones bring on a different collector with a YouTube channel each week. I'm always open to feedback on how I can avoid being monotonous with my videos.

You and Jason are GREAT! Really down to earth, and in no way pretentious. Unlike a previous statement that was made, you guys do a commendable job featuring interesting guests with modest collections (who do not have thousands of dollars to spend). You and Jason are great at featuring inexpensive options for buying cool cards. I always enjoy watching Cardboard & Cold Ones, as well as The 4 Collectors Channel. Hopefully some of the people here will check it out!

I do understand the people posting here who are saying it's annoying the way some content creators will lecture you forever and take 45 minutes to rehash a stale topic that could be fully covered in 6-7 minutes. That is annoying, and who has that kind of free time, anyway?

But you guys always keep it fresh with fun conversations. Keep up the great work!

[jchcollins]

After reading this, N54’ers seem just as divided as the YT’ers on the question of SGC’s possible demise.

I don’t know for certain, but I don’t believe it’s likely that anyone in the YT community (including Mike M. “Baseball Collector” who started all this hubub…) have any inside information or reason to be more in the know about Collectors and their plans than anyone here.

I do for my own personal reasons hope that SGC lives, if for no other reason than brand differentiation and above that, true competition in the marketplace is traditionally good for all different type of economies. Including the hobby.

At the end of the day, it’s probably largely a moot point as a graded card in the final analysis is just a holder to me. Should my holder of choice go out of business or otherwise fall out of favor in a matter of months or years - I’ll just start getting different holders.


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[CaramelMan]

As someone who collects all PSA SGC and Beckett in modern and pre-war, i can say it’s very clear which brand gets the premium on a sale…

If there was the same card in psa 10 sgc 10 (9.5) and Beckett 9.5,
The psa sells for considerably more …. PSA is the Cadillac when buyers are concerned and PSA clearly knows this…if SGC is kept, it will be the “second fiddle” in PSAs eyes with lesser fees but less value in the same grade as PSA …

This doesn’t pertain to Old Judge….SGC is the master of this era, but as soon as you get to the monster, PSA gets more dollars for the same grade in Sgc…

It’s not close in my Pujols Rookies 2001… a PSA 10 Pujols 2001 is worth its weight in gold and SGC and Beckett are FAR behind in sale values…Thus the difficulty in psa grading and crossover: they know its worth a lot more in their slab so they have to be TOUGH..

My opinion from a collector who does it all and deals with all…

And even if you “dislike” PSA very much for whatever reason, you can’t deny final sale values…

SGC experts should become the 19th century branch of psa…that’s it

Scott

[Balticfox]

So if SGC is shut down, will SGC graded cards plummet in price?