Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not up to the standards of the old Point Counterpoint on 60 Minutes.

More like the parody on SNL, with Dan Aykroyd famously saying to Jane Curtin, Jane, you ignorant slut!!

"2 years from now, if still no lawsuits are filed, would you then agree that its far from rocking the hobby in that it would appear most people are happy/refunded with the outcome.."

Tough to have a cogent argument with someone whose only point is that nearly everyone in the hobby is actually thrilled that PSA is putting thousands of trimmed cards into holders simply because no single victim has individually sued a public company for the price of their worthless card. That's his only point. Peter, let me know how many people who lost between $500 and $10,000 due to PSA incompetence would be willing to pay a lawyer to sue PSA, knowing they can't join up in a class?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

"2 years from now, if still no lawsuits are filed, would you then agree that its far from rocking the hobby in that it would appear most people are happy/refunded with the outcome.."

Tough to have a cogent argument with someone whose only point is that nearly everyone in the hobby is actually thrilled that PSA is putting thousands of trimmed cards into holders simply because no single victim has individually sued a public company for the price of their worthless card. That's his only point. Peter, let me know how many people who lost between $500 and $10,000 due to PSA incompetence would be willing to pay a lawyer to sue PSA, knowing they can't join up in a class?

No point prolonging the argument then, if you don't feed it, it dies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's also a weird situation because in this market, a lot of people could just mitigate their damage by selling off the cards they have doubts about, or even the ones that have been specifically outed. Easier than paying a lawyer to sue for you in Orange County.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's also a weird situation because in this market, a lot of people could just mitigate their damage by selling off the cards they have doubts about, or even the ones that have been specifically outed. Easier than paying a lawyer to sue for you in Orange County.

Hard to sell a card in a graded holder which has been outed as having been altered, no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hard to sell a card in a graded holder which has been outed as having been altered, no?

99 percent of buyers wouldn't check.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

99 percent of buyers wouldn't check.

At this point i tend to agree!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

At this point i tend to agree!

What are they going to do, scroll through 3 million pages on Blowout? Go to PSA's website and cross-check their list -- oops -- never mind that one.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What are they going to do, scroll through 3 million pages on Blowout? Go to PSA's website and cross-check their list -- oops -- never mind that one.

Definitely not!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Somebody trimmed AND recolored an $18,000 USD card?

You have to have a REALLY large set of balls to do that - larger than Tony Montana's.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's all relative. If you have millions, it's not much to risk particularly if you think there's a decent chance you'll succeed. People bet a hell of a lot more than that every day.

Or if you have an in at PSA...

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Or if you have an in at PSA...

.....or you just have to be confident in their inability to do their job.

[Johnny630]

This is the worst/Most Obviously Re Colored Card Exposed as of yet.....was this graded at one of those invitationals where the high volume submitters get to sit and discuss with graders??
Did they even look at his jersey or chin of this butchered Hull Rookie
I’m not buying PSA is this bad at grading cards.......
Such a Shame

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This is the worst/Most Obviously Re Colored Card Exposed as of yet.....was this graded at one of those invitationals where the high volume submitters get to sit and discuss with graders??
Did they even look at his jersey or chin of this butchered Hull Rookie
Such a Shame

There was a 52 Mantle that was worse than the Hull. Think it was the one that bumped from 1 to 1.5 ?

[Johnny630]

I guess at this Point What Difference Does it Make?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1778

A mere 60K gain.

What a disgrace. I'm not familiar with 1958 Topps Hockey cards, but I do know that many of the later '60's Topps Baseball cards had a dot matrix print pattern that would make it easy to detect recoloring under magnification. Putting $18,000 at risk to modify a card reveals a lot about PSA's gross lack of competence and the card doctor's brazen confidence (likely based on years of experience and lucrative returns on investment) to attempt to get a grade bump like this.

[perezfan]

Agree...

Gross incompetence by PSA. A simple magnifying glass would reveal the very significant recoloring of that card. Within the thread on BO, they blew up that section, and it was beyond obvious that red ink was added to the jersey. Major tampering, and a true disgrace. Hope the buyer gets word of this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree...

Gross incompetence by PSA. A simple magnifying glass would reveal the very significant recoloring of that card. Within the thread on BO, they blew up that section, and it was beyond obvious that red ink was added to the jersey. Major tampering, and a true disgrace. Hope the buyer gets word of this.

"As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with."

"So I think this whole trimming issue that we spent a lot of time talking about today is really something that we don't consider material to our business."

Joseph J. Orlando

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/edite...083408142.html

[brad31]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with."

"So I think this whole trimming issue that we spent a lot of time talking about today is really something that we don't consider material to our business."

Joseph J. Orlando

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/edite...083408142.html

Wow if I read that transcript correctly it sounds to me like that they either do not accept submissions from PWCC or PWCC has stopped submitting cards on behalf of themselves or their consigners.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with."

"So I think this whole trimming issue that we spent a lot of time talking about today is really something that we don't consider material to our business."

Joseph J. Orlando

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/edite...083408142.html

Unbelievable!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree...

Gross incompetence by PSA. A simple magnifying glass would reveal the very significant recoloring of that card. Within the thread on BO, they blew up that section, and it was beyond obvious that red ink was added to the jersey. Major tampering, and a true disgrace. Hope the buyer gets word of this.

Who knows? It may not matter to the buyer. Maybe the buyer is another card doctor hoping to alter it to a 9 or 10.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Unbelievable!

Except that it's exactly what you would expect and could have predicted, no?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Who knows? It may not matter to the buyer. Maybe the buyer is another card doctor hoping to alter it to a 9 or 10.

Well, I guess you have a point. I almost forgot that these guys actually have to buy the cards before they alter, slab and consign them. If a Doctor has the balls to plop down $78K on that card in hopes of getting a 9 or 10, he's got a lot more intestinal fortitude than me!

[Beastmode]

I'm shocked collectors still think these trimmers were submitting altered cards to PSA without knowing the outcome. Please, our collecting community cannot be that dumb. 99% certainty these trimmers knew exactly the grade they were going to get, and PSA is knee deep in this crap.

If a trimmer is spending thousands of dollars to duplicate a factory cut to 1/64 of an inch, and years perfecting his skills, he's going to have an inside track to getting that bump.

Until Joe Orlando is quoted under penalty of perjury during a deposition, I'll assume anything coming from his mouth is meant for the collectors club kool-aid drinkers.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

I'm shocked collectors still think these trimmers were submitting altered cards to PSA without knowing the outcome. Please, our collecting community cannot be that dumb. 99% certainty these trimmers knew exactly the grade they were going to get, and PSA is knee deep in this crap.

If a trimmer is spending thousands of dollars to duplicate a factory cut to 1/64 of an inch, and years perfecting his skills, he's going to have an inside track to getting that bump.

Until Joe Orlando is quoted under penalty of perjury during a deposition, I'll assume anything coming from his mouth is meant for the collectors club kool-aid drinkers.

I have had that opinion for a very long time.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Except that it's exactly what you would expect and could have predicted, no?

I was thinking in terms of a response from a CEO of a publicly traded company dismissing an issue as immaterial when in my opinion it is clearly germane to their business where the potential liability to their company is significant.

On the other hand you bring up a great point: this is just another example of lame rhetoric by Orlando used to smooth over, deflect and dismiss just another PSA scandal and naturally his response doesn't surprise me in the least. He gave me the scorched earth treatment when I publicly exposed examples of doctored PSA cards ten years ago, by banning me, deleting registry sets, etc and never publicly addressed the issue. I wasn't alone; there were other disgruntled collectors who endured the same fate. One has to wonder what kind of retribution he imposed on the stock analysts who brought up the questions regarding trimmed cards in the recent quarterly results meeting?

I'm reminded when Ken Lay the CEO of Enron assured employees and stockholders all is well with Enron and promoted a bright future and cajoled the said parties to buy even more Enron stock when in fact the company was quietly floundering into a state of disaster. Lay was later convicted of multiple crimes including making false statements. Whether that applies to this situation, I'll leave that to the legal experts.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

He gave me the scorched earth treatment when I publicly exposed examples of doctored PSA cards ten years ago, by banning me, deleting registry sets, etc and never publicly addressed the issue. I wasn't alone; there were other disgruntled collectors who endured the same fate.

I think I remember you from almost twenty years ago on the CU Forums. Was your avatar a panther? Do you remember the image wars? We used to find pictures of ugly people and then we would Photoshop them collecting cards, and post them on the forum with funny headers (I saw xxx last night looking at his cards on the toilet - now we know why his cards keep getting the ST qualifier). I was only a teenager back then and I'm pretty sure I annoyed the hell outta' everybody.

I remember when PSA graded the first O-Pee-Chee Wayne Gretzky RC a 10 GEM MINT. Being Canadian, I have seen a trillion of these cards before and I just felt that it wasn't a perfect-looking card. I remember pointing out an error, or two, and then I got the boot.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Yes, I did have a panther avatar in the early days. I didn't have Photoshop software, so the customized cards phenomenon doesn't stand out for me. It was a great time in the early days - buying raw cards at shows and selected shops and getting them graded and seeing their value jump significantly if they got a high grade. Then by 2003 or so, the nice cards dried up and things started to surface that PSA wasn't all that it was cracked up to be.

[Johnny630]

Great Job BODA

This whitey ford 61 AS is a disgrace.....

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=75

PSA’s OPINION IS WORTHLESS

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Great Job BODA

This whitey ford 61 AS is a disgrace.....

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=75

PSA’s OPINION IS WORTHLESS

It appears to be in one of Nat Turner's sets. Nat as some know has a very substantial collection, it would be interesting to know his reaction assuming he finds out.

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...ard-collection

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It appears to be in one of Nat Turner's sets. Nat as some know has a very substantial collection, it would be interesting to know his reaction assuming he finds out.

Hope the gentleman finds out..........

[Johnny630]

Here comes my inner Chuck.....

PSA has completely wrongfully put tens of thousands, it not hundreds of thousands of cards in holders that are altered.... facilitating the public to be potentially defrauded over and over again.....their Number 1 In the industry egotistical mentality is all Bull To The S Garbage Wake Up People !!!!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm saying that the lawsuit issue is meaningless. That the lack of them does not mean people are happy. My point by noting that statutes of limits exist is to explain that not everyone who can sue MUST sue immediately as you are suggesting. How you, allegedly a lawyer who may have one client, cannot see this is stunning. I scored a $4.35 million settlement on a claim recently with a single letter. No lawsuit. Does that mean my client was thrilled because she didn't file a lawsuit? Do you not understand how this works? Ask Mastro's co-conspirators who paid my clients six figures if they felt a lawsuit was necessary to get them to pay back money they stole.

And if you don't mind me calling you an idiot, then I will again. You're an idiot. And yeah, I always have time for pointing this out, although, again, that no one from here hires a crack civil litigator like yourself surely makes clear I'm not alone in my opinion.

Thanks for calling me an idiot again Peter C. So now its school yard who is bigger than the other. Bullys dont care how people are treated in the world. Another school yard tactic So again you proved my point, the fact that only time is cited by you as a reason why lawsuits have not been filed shows that lawsuits are indeed an important factor. You are just saying its too soon.

My view is enough time has passed that people seem to be happy with the outcome or great lawyers like you write one terrific letter so no lawsuit is needed. I think we can all name instances in which a lawsuit did more than a letter .

I dont think filing a lawsuit now would be immediate as well. How long as it been? It appears 'victims' are happy how things are proceeding where they are happy or not worth filing a lawsuit at this point. There are problems in the world in which lawsuits are filed and there problems where none are, thus far this falls in the later category

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

"2 years from now, if still no lawsuits are filed, would you then agree that its far from rocking the hobby in that it would appear most people are happy/refunded with the outcome.."

Tough to have a cogent argument with someone whose only point is that nearly everyone in the hobby is actually thrilled that PSA is putting thousands of trimmed cards into holders simply because no single victim has individually sued a public company for the price of their worthless card. That's his only point. Peter, let me know how many people who lost between $500 and $10,000 due to PSA incompetence would be willing to pay a lawyer to sue PSA, knowing they can't join up in a class?

so nobody lost more than $10,000 due to PSA's incompetence which seems to be the magic number for no lawsuit. . PSA is the only one thats incompetent too i guess as interesting enough, you didnt mention any other entity that could possibly be responsible, just PSA.

Insurance companies are public companies and they get sued, not sure why you mention PSA is a public company like thats a deterrent, they probably have insurance as well. I guess nobody sues public companies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Please let this end.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Please let this end.

He's too stupid to let it end.

[samosa4u]

Why don't you two just fight it out on the streets of NY, and afterwards, when both of you are exhausted, then just go for a beer?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

He's too stupid to let it end.

Ditto

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Why don't you two just fight it out on the streets of NY, and afterwards, when both of you are exhausted, then just go for a beer?

yeah he can pay for it given all of the money he makes. Maybe i will pay for the tip when we get the bill but hopefully he wont have alligator arms.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

yeah he can pay for it given all of the money he makes. Maybe i will pay for the tip when we get the bill but hopefully he wont have alligator arms.

Work harder. Don’t be an idiot all the time. Maybe then you’ll be successful in our field. Don’t be bitter about being a loser, it’s your fault, not mine.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Work harder. Don’t be an idiot all the time. Maybe then you’ll be successful in our field. Don’t be bitter about being a loser, it’s your fault, not mine.

Sounds like alligator arms..

[perezfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Why don't you two just fight it out on the streets of NY, and afterwards, when both of you are exhausted, then just go for a beer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiyJI5Kmcro

[Stampsfan]

Silly me, I opened this today thinking there might be more outed cards on this thread.

Can you two start your own thread so we can get back to the point of this one?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Silly me, I opened this today thinking there might be more outed cards on this thread.

Can you two start your own thread so we can get back to the point of this one?

Plenty of new examples in this BO Thread....

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=76

Check out the extra "air space" in those PSA Slabs. The hits just keep on coming!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Plenty of new examples in this BO Thread....

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=76

Check out the extra "air space" in those PSA Slabs. The hits just keep on coming!

Paraphrasing Newman from Seinfield: "It just never stops! It just keeps coming and coming..."

And these are only the ones that Blowout found "before" pictures of. Undoubtedly the card doctors altered many more cards that never appeared on the internet or where no database archived the imagines of cards sold on the internet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Paraphrasing Newman from Seinfield: "It just never stops! It just keeps coming and coming..."

The theme song for the scandal could be Abba's "On and on and on."

[Johnny630]

How long till the collapse of this so called Market ?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

How long till the collapse of this so called Market ?

This one has to wait its turn. We are still waiting for the big fall from the Mastro fiasco. At least he was honest and straight up said most high end cards are altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This one has to wait its turn. We are still waiting for the big fall from the Mastro fiasco. At least he was honest and straight up said most high end cards are altered.

Funny, I must have missed those disclosures in his catalogues.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Funny, I must have missed those disclosures in his catalogues.

I believe he waited till after getting caught before he told that to the general public.

[Johnny630]

To me this whole debacle is way worse then Mastro.