Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Same here... extremely discontent and saddened about the state of the hobby, or business, or whatever the hell it is now...

But although I am not personally filing any lawsuits, who knows how many other defrauded people are preparing for litigation. This is the infancy stage. Many victims have not yet become aware of the situation, but they very well might, in due time.

PSA wants everyone to go back to the sellers for refunds. But what if the tainted cards were bought months/years ago? What if the Dealer is no longer in business or is unreachable? What if the card was obtained via trade show, in which the seller has been long-forgotten?

The vast majority of us have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. Give it adequate time, for goodness' sake.

right i understand, but again you are stating that lawsuits WILL happen. My point is if they NEVER happen, then this matter isnt to the extent as such a big deal. People were wronged yes, but there is a huge category of wronged people in which lawsuits are actually filed for lower amounts of money that at issue here.

Yeah there are certain examples of reasons for certain people why no lawsuit was filed but what about the 100s of easy ones involving large amounts of money.

Guy buys a card for 30k from dealer who is in business, and weeks later finds out it was trimmed. (so no issue of card at trade show, or seller is long forgotten or dealer out of business) Lets give it another year from today, wouldnt that not be in the infancy stage?

All i hear is that its soo early as the months keep going by and all of the reasons why nobody would pursue the matter but there are more reasons why people would pursue unless they were happy with the outcome/recourse and reason no lawsuit filed..

I just think even 2 years from now, i will still hear 'give it time'

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Its interesting that almost every comment you make has an insult in it. We all know about people who find they have to belittle people.

I am making a point. There are no lawsuits. Only takes one major suit to help resolve other potential cases so having one lawsuit is a big deal versus zero.

There is no final answer that you have or I have as to why there arent any. We all have are viewpoints. I am free to make my own point and you are free to make your point.

Even people not in penthouse lawyer offices are free to make our points known. The fact you bother to reply to little ole me shows me something. I assume you will again respond with an nursery school insult and raise your dorsal fin but again you will feel the need to say something. Thats the funny thing.

So one lawsuit brought -- which was actually a counterclaim -- makes a situation hugely problematic for hobbyists but that no lawsuits brought means that this is a non-issue? Are you aware that the one counterclaim brought against Mastro occurred years after the criminal investigation began? Much further down the road than where we are now with the revelations about PSA and grading of trimmed cards.

As for an insult, there's no need really to insult you. I can't do any better than your own words, your own faulty logic. Even the non-lawyers have more acumen than you on these issues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just to end these posts by Jake, I am filing suit tomorrow on behalf of myself and a class that I'll figure out later against all three grading companies, PWCC, 17 card doctors, and 17 other defendants to be named later for intentional infliction of emotional distress for all the angst they have caused me since the scandal began. Even though they haven't consented I am including Johnny and Chuck as named plaintiffs. Anyone else who wants to be named you'll have to pay me but you will need a minimum of 500 posts on the subject to qualify. Blowout doesn't count. On Kenny Cole's law school classmate's advice I am avoiding California courts like the plague. I am still debating Oregon (no sales tax, home of PWCC and vault and Martin) or Texas (home of Leon and Adat Chaverim show). Jake, I'll send you a copy once it's filed.

Edit to add To appease some message board wannabes I will also have a RICO count and a request to shut down PSA.

[calvindog]

Civil RICO or criminal?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Civil RICO or criminal?

I want to be the first person to bring a criminal RICO claim in a civil suit, so criminal.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I want to be the first person to bring a criminal RICO claim in a civil suit, so criminal.

Harvard lawyer showing off.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL. Maybe I'll add a counterclaim to my own suit, about a comic book?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. Maybe I'll add a counterclaim to my own suit, about a comic book?

Cough. Brilliant idea! Wish I had thought of it. 0_o

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Cough. Brilliant idea! Wish I had thought of it. 0_o

Whatever avoids that undisputed debt works for me.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever avoids that undisputed debt works for me.

Worked for me too.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

So one lawsuit brought -- which was actually a counterclaim -- makes a situation hugely problematic for hobbyists but that no lawsuits brought means that this is a non-issue? Are you aware that the one counterclaim brought against Mastro occurred years after the criminal investigation began? Much further down the road than where we are now with the revelations about PSA and grading of trimmed cards.

As for an insult, there's no need really to insult you. I can't do any better than your own words, your own faulty logic. Even the non-lawyers have more acumen than you on these issues.

there you go. Another post that you know all the answers and another insult. What a surprise.

You have your own narrative and you dont factor in anything. I understand you are making your argument and have a client in this issue. Nobody knows everything. I never said this is a non-issue, i always said theres there is an issue. I just said there are issues where lawsuits are involved and issues where lawsuits are not involved.

To me, i think thats a big difference. I would think in the HOF of the biggest scams in the world where people are wronged and lost tons of money and were all unhappy a lawsuit would be filed whether now or 3 years from now. People are saying that in time it will happen, I am just saying theres a good chance there wont if everyone is satisfied to a degree/dont care that nobody will file lawsuit.

I can spare you your next post. Jake- people in grade school know more than you. I am great, look at how i bully and insult.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Just to end these posts by Jake, I am filing suit tomorrow on behalf of myself and a class that I'll figure out later against all three grading companies, PWCC, 17 card doctors, and 17 other defendants to be named later for intentional infliction of emotional distress for all the angst they have caused me since the scandal began. Even though they haven't consented I am including Johnny and Chuck as named plaintiffs. Anyone else who wants to be named you'll have to pay me but you will need a minimum of 500 posts on the subject to qualify. Blowout doesn't count. On Kenny Cole's law school classmate's advice I am avoiding California courts like the plague. I am still debating Oregon (no sales tax, home of PWCC and vault and Martin) or Texas (home of Leon and Adat Chaverim show). Jake, I'll send you a copy once it's filed.

Edit to add To appease some message board wannabes I will also have a RICO count and a request to shut down PSA.

Ill await the copy......

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

there you go. Another post that you know all the answers and another insult. What a surprise.

You have your own narrative and you dont factor in anything. I understand you are making your argument and have a client in this issue. Nobody knows everything. I never said this is a non-issue, i always said theres there is an issue. I just said there are issues where lawsuits are involved and issues where lawsuits are not involved.

To me, i think thats a big difference. I would think in the HOF of the biggest scams in the world where people are wronged and lost tons of money and were all unhappy a lawsuit would be filed whether now or 3 years from now. People are saying that in time it will happen, I am just saying theres a good chance there wont if everyone is satisfied to a degree/dont care that nobody will file lawsuit.

I can spare you your next post. Jake- people in grade school know more than you. I am great, look at how i bully and insult.

You're Peter Chao. I don't think you're malignant but you proudly wave around your ignorance as if it is supposed to impress someone.

Sometimes it makes sense to listen to people who know more than you on an issue, who have actual experience on an issue, who are involved in the issue.

Again, and I'll type this slowly for you: litigation does not need to be brought in order for victims to be made whole. The number of lawsuits brought is not directly related to the harm perceived or suffered. Yes, this is grade school common sense of which non-lawyers on the board seem to understand well.

The fact that I have a client involved would suggest that I would be looking to downplay what occurred here. I am not. For an obvious reason. Again, and s l o w l y: what occurred here rocks the foundation of the hobby. Lawsuits or no lawsuits will not change that.

[tschock]

To paraphrase Barbie. Lawyering is hard.
All this civil suit discussion has got me wondering if I need to file a civil suit against the grocery store for the bag of bad apples they sold me. Do I need a retainer? And if so, how much with that run?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Just to end these posts by Jake, I am filing suit tomorrow on behalf of myself and a class that I'll figure out later against all three grading companies, PWCC, 17 card doctors, and 17 other defendants to be named later for intentional infliction of emotional distress for all the angst they have caused me since the scandal began. Even though they haven't consented I am including Johnny and Chuck as named plaintiffs. Anyone else who wants to be named you'll have to pay me but you will need a minimum of 500 posts on the subject to qualify. Blowout doesn't count. On Kenny Cole's law school classmate's advice I am avoiding California courts like the plague. I am still debating Oregon (no sales tax, home of PWCC and vault and Martin) or Texas (home of Leon and Adat Chaverim show). Jake, I'll send you a copy once it's filed.

Edit to add To appease some message board wannabes I will also have a RICO count and a request to shut down PSA.

I consent. Class action, Rico & shut it all down! I'm currently in a class action lawsuit with the gas company going on for 5 years now, so I don't expect Rome to be built in a day. Get it going. Where should I ship all the evidence, All My FAKE trimmed cards in these stupid plastic rip off holders?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I consent. Class action, Rico & shut it all down! I'm currently in a class action lawsuit with the gas company going on for 5 years now, so I don't expect Rome to be built in a day. Get it going. Where should I ship all the evidence, All My FAKE trimmed cards in these stupid plastic rip off holders?

The Vault will make a nice home for them, I think. Send them along to be ingested.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Vault will make a nice home for them, I think. Send them along to be ingested.

Lmao !

[Peter_Spaeth]

The vault, getting ready to ingest another victim.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Just to end these posts by Jake, I am filing suit tomorrow on behalf of myself and a class that I'll figure out later against all three grading companies, PWCC, 17 card doctors, and 17 other defendants to be named later for intentional infliction of emotional distress for all the angst they have caused me since the scandal began. Even though they haven't consented I am including Johnny and Chuck as named plaintiffs. Anyone else who wants to be named you'll have to pay me but you will need a minimum of 500 posts on the subject to qualify. Blowout doesn't count. On Kenny Cole's law school classmate's advice I am avoiding California courts like the plague. I am still debating Oregon (no sales tax, home of PWCC and vault and Martin) or Texas (home of Leon and Adat Chaverim show). Jake, I'll send you a copy once it's filed.

Edit to add To appease some message board wannabes I will also have a RICO count and a request to shut down PSA.

I'm.... wait, I have to make 500 posts AND pay you? That's just too much work for me. I probably couldn't afford it anyway.

[steve B]

PSA after the class action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZTdqh-a0tU

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm.... wait, I have to make 500 posts AND pay you? That's just too much work for me. I probably couldn't afford it anyway.

Fees waived for locals.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

the vault, getting ready to ingest another victim.

lmao!!!!!

The Vault is guarded by:

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

lmao!!!!!

The Vault is guarded by:

appropriate as October 31 is approaching...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Up the ladder to the roof, as the Supremes song goes.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1642

[ullmandds]

THERE'S THE PROOF...paying huge $$$$$ for 9's or 10's is just plain stupid!!!!! Because on any given day they could be 8's!!

[perezfan]

I don't know how to copy/paste a single post like Peter did...

But if you go over to that same thread in Blowout, you'll see another '56 Topps card that made the same jumps from PSA 8 to 9 to 10. The 1956 Red Schoendienst was proven trimmed, whereas they detected no difference in the Neal.

So which is which is worse? The random numerical grades assigned for the same exact Neal card (which jumped from $66 to $3,894). Or the obviously trimmed Schoendienst (which jumped from $109 to $1,780).

Is there really a minute chance that the grader(s) made these highly coincidental mistakes legitimately and in honest fashion? Or are these further examples of PSA turning a blind eye for a preferred submitter? Neither scenario bodes well for them.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You're Peter Chao. I don't think you're malignant but you proudly wave around your ignorance as if it is supposed to impress someone.

Sometimes it makes sense to listen to people who know more than you on an issue, who have actual experience on an issue, who are involved in the issue.

Again, and I'll type this slowly for you: litigation does not need to be brought in order for victims to be made whole. The number of lawsuits brought is not directly related to the harm perceived or suffered. Yes, this is grade school common sense of which non-lawyers on the board seem to understand well.

The fact that I have a client involved would suggest that I would be looking to downplay what occurred here. I am not. For an obvious reason. Again, and s l o w l y: what occurred here rocks the foundation of the hobby. Lawsuits or no lawsuits will not change that.

I think you are Peter Chao (see how it looks when you say that).

You said what occurred rocked the foundation of the hobby. Do you mean the buyer or the sellers or both? Are prices at auctions getting rocked now versus before. Less submissions to PSA? No lines to get cards graded? The stock price for collector universe has gotten rocked? We already know no lawsuits.



Please advise as to how the foundation has been rocked. Ill say it slowly 'R o c k ed'

[perezfan]

Poor Peter Chao...

Looks like his infamous legacy will never end here. Hope he found a friendlier and more accepting place to hang out.

[Rich Klein]

Peter has not done much with his linked in profile -- but if you are interested in chatting with him: And yes, this is HIS profile

https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-chao-71a84863/

Regards
Rich

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Up the ladder to the roof, as the Supremes song goes.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1642

Nothing to see here, three different days - three different "opinions."

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I think you are Peter Chao (see how it looks when you say that).

You said what occurred rocked the foundation of the hobby. Do you mean the buyer or the sellers or both? Are prices at auctions getting rocked now versus before. Less submissions to PSA? No lines to get cards graded? The stock price for collector universe has gotten rocked? We already know no lawsuits.



Please advise as to how the foundation has been rocked. Ill say it slowly 'R o c k ed'

You’re an idiot and have the legal acumen of a flea. Which is why you are the only civil litigator aggressively discussing lawsuits against PSA and your own mother wouldn’t hire you. No one with any grey matter on this board will. You simply have no common sense. (See how it looks when I say that?)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Poor Peter Chao...

Looks like his infamous legacy will never end here. Hope he found a friendlier and more accepting place to hang out.

Nor should it end. His Virginia Tech thread, which I linked to someplace recently, will never be matched.

Nor, for that matter, will his question why Joe Jackson didn't get hurt if he played without shoes.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Excellent thoughts. I remember well a poster here from a decade ago who, at least in his public stance, fit squarely into category 3.

Correct Jim talked a good game but that was it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You’re an idiot and have the legal acumen of a flea. Which is why you are the only civil litigator aggressively discussing lawsuits against PSA and your own mother wouldn’t hire you. No one with any grey matter on this board will. You simply have no common sense. (See how it looks when I say that?)

well this idiot predicted you would bully on your posts and attempt to belittle.

Surprised you would resort to a 'your mother' joke. Guess thats why you are so expensive. Such original insults. I am not sure what yo mean about aggressively discussing lawsuits against PSA

I have been discussing the opposite. Have I not stated a number of times that I guess everyone is satisfied/refunded that NO lawsuits have been filed.

It seems you are the one that is stating that the hobby has been rocked and just because there are no lawsuits its a HUGE issue and worthy of litigation or other major fix. I also asked the questions about whether past sales at auctions shows how bad the hobby has been rocked as you stated which you didnt answer. I dont think recent auction sales reflect that. Thats a position that would be contra to discussing lawsuits.

It sounds like from what you are saying that you are encouraging aggressively discussing lawsuits. (see how that sounds) You just keep making up your own narrative no matter what i state and be a bully.


Also its interesting you yourself were critical of PWCC (one would think you were looking for clients) and now you represent them

Peter C lives!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

well this idiot predicted you would bully on your posts and attempt to belittle.

Surprised you would resort to a 'your mother' joke. Guess thats why you are so expensive. Such original insults. I am not sure what yo mean about aggressively discussing lawsuits against PSA

I have been discussing the opposite. Have I not stated a number of times that I guess everyone is satisfied/refunded that NO lawsuits have been filed.

It seems you are the one that is stating that the hobby has been rocked and just because there are no lawsuits its a HUGE issue and worthy of litigation or other major fix. I also asked the questions about whether past sales at auctions shows how bad the hobby has been rocked as you stated which you didnt answer. I dont think recent auction sales reflect that. Thats a position that would be contra to discussing lawsuits. It sounds like from what you are saying that you are encouraging aggressively discussing lawsuits
(see how that sounds)

Peter C lives!

Jake, I'm expensive due to supply and demand. For the same reason you barely exist in the legal world.

These issues are very obvious to everyone on the board but you. Again, everyone is not satisfied or happy just because no lawsuits are filed. If everyone is satisfied and happy, why is there a present criminal investigation occurring? No harm, no foul, right? Why is there a statute of limitations on lawsuits? Why not just make the limitation period 3 months? Because that's all anyone needs to determine if they are satisfied and happy on a legal dispute, right?

The ramifications of the card alteration scandal will not be fully appreciated for a while as again everyone knows this but you. When enough 'before' pictures are outed and start causing most high grade cards to no longer be able to be sold, do you think that is a non-issue? And they can't be cracked out and resubmitted because the cards will just be outed again. If PSA is required to start replacing numerically cards from the registry and turning them into As, do you think this doesn't affect the hobby?

Do you think this is over just because one dullard says so?

And I'm sorry I hurt your feelings by calling you an idiot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion the majority of altered cards are never going to be outed because they were purchased raw. Whether enough are going to be outed anyhow that destroy confidence in TPG high grade slabs altogether, we'll see.

[Rhotchkiss]

Was Mastro still operating biz as usual while under investigation, and if so, how long did that go on until Mastro closed up?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whether enough are going to be outed anyhow that destroy confidence in TPG high grade slabs altogether, we'll see.

This to me is the 64 thousand dollar question. And it is very unclear to me that anything short of a new TPG that uses as part of its business model the outing of high grade slabbed cards in order to attract market share, confidence in the PSA slab will ever be impacted enough to provide the needed financial incentive to induce the type of litigation that could threaten PSA.

[JeremyW]

Anyone who is thinking about investing in high grade PSA cards needs to look at Peter's post (#274). From $60 to $4,000. should make people question what is going on.

[MULLINS5]

$60,000 value gain on an altered PSA 8 Bobby Hull rookie just surfaced on Blowout.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

$60,000 value gain on an altered PSA 8 Bobby Hull rookie just surfaced on Blowout.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1778

A mere 60K gain.

[ullmandds]

Wow!!!

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Wow!!!

How Can Newport Beach Miss the Snow recoloring on this Hull? Can someone please explain this??

I know longer buy they are this bad at detecting alterations....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jake, I'm expensive due to supply and demand. For the same reason you barely exist in the legal world.

These issues are very obvious to everyone on the board but you. Again, everyone is not satisfied or happy just because no lawsuits are filed. If everyone is satisfied and happy, why is there a present criminal investigation occurring? No harm, no foul, right? Why is there a statute of limitations on lawsuits? Why not just make the limitation period 3 months? Because that's all anyone needs to determine if they are satisfied and happy on a legal dispute, right?

Some states have 1 year or 2 statue of limitations by the way. Yeah can argue federal and other ways to pursue a case but why let your statute SOL blow if this issue is rocking the hobby.

The ramifications of the card alteration scandal will not be fully appreciated for a while as again everyone knows this but you. When enough 'before' pictures are outed and start causing most high grade cards to no longer be able to be sold, do you think that is a non-issue? And they can't be cracked out and resubmitted because the cards will just be outed again. If PSA is required to start replacing numerically cards from the registry and turning them into As, do you think this doesn't affect the hobby?

Do you think this is over just because one dullard says so?

And I'm sorry I hurt your feelings by calling you an idiot.

right so now you saying the statute of limitations didnt expire so its still early for lawsuits. What about 3 months before the statute of limitations or a year. I dont know about you but most lawyers dont wait until right before the statute of limitations to file anything as there is added risk such blowing an issue and thus blowing the statute or class action occurs earlier and there is no opt out along with hundreds of other problems in waiting to the last minute etc

The fact you are mentioning statute of limitations being an issue as to why no lawsuits have been filed does prove that you do think lawsuits would be filed since this current scandal is a huge issue but only because enough time has not passed no lawsuits have been filed. If lawsuits or not didnt mean anything why bother to bring up the statute of limitations.

So its not absurd I am bringing up the fact that no lawsuits have been filed. 2 years from now, if still no lawsuits are filed, would you then agree that its far from rocking the hobby in that it would appear most people are happy/refunded with the outcome..

Its ok you said i am an idiot....you spent time to write that and there is much supply and demand for your services so your time in so expensive that you still took what little free time you have to call me names and make a your mama joke. i am honored. Peter C lives..

[samosa4u]

Somebody trimmed AND recolored an $18,000 USD card?

You have to have a REALLY large set of balls to do that - larger than Tony Montana's.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Somebody trimmed AND recolored an $18,000 USD card?

You have to have a REALLY large set of balls to do that - larger than Tony Montana's.

It's all relative. If you have millions, it's not much to risk particularly if you think there's a decent chance you'll succeed. People bet a hell of a lot more than that every day.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's all relative. If you have millions, it's not much to risk particularly if you think there's a decent chance you'll succeed. People bet a hell of a lot more than that every day.

I agree with you, but I'm starting to feel like they know ahead of time what the grade will be before going through the trouble.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I agree with you, but I'm starting to feel like they know ahead of time what the grade will be before going through the trouble.

Bingo

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right so now you saying the statute of limitations didnt expire so its still early for lawsuits. What about 3 months before the statute of limitations or a year. I dont know about you but most lawyers dont wait until right before the statute of limitations to file anything as there is added risk such blowing an issue and thus blowing the statute or class action occurs earlier and there is no opt out along with hundreds of other problems in waiting to the last minute etc

The fact you are mentioning statute of limitations being an issue as to why no lawsuits have been filed does prove that you do think lawsuits would be filed since this current scandal is a huge issue but only because enough time has not passed no lawsuits have been filed. If lawsuits or not didnt mean anything why bother to bring up the statute of limitations.

So its not absurd I am bringing up the fact that no lawsuits have been filed. 2 years from now, if still no lawsuits are filed, would you then agree that its far from rocking the hobby in that it would appear most people are happy/refunded with the outcome..

Its ok you said i am an idiot....you spent time to write that and there is much supply and demand for your services so your time in so expensive that you still took what little free time you have to call me names and make a your mama joke. i am honored. Peter C lives..

I'm saying that the lawsuit issue is meaningless. That the lack of them does not mean people are happy. My point by noting that statutes of limits exist is to explain that not everyone who can sue MUST sue immediately as you are suggesting. How you, allegedly a lawyer who may have one client, cannot see this is stunning. I scored a $4.35 million settlement on a claim recently with a single letter. No lawsuit. Does that mean my client was thrilled because she didn't file a lawsuit? Do you not understand how this works? Ask Mastro's co-conspirators who paid my clients six figures if they felt a lawsuit was necessary to get them to pay back money they stole.

And if you don't mind me calling you an idiot, then I will again. You're an idiot. And yeah, I always have time for pointing this out, although, again, that no one from here hires a crack civil litigator like yourself surely makes clear I'm not alone in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not up to the standards of the old Point Counterpoint on 60 Minutes.

More like the parody on SNL, with Dan Aykroyd famously saying to Jane Curtin, Jane, you ignorant slut!!