Ethical question / Paypal

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by celoknob

When I am selling something I never ask for "gift"; I'm not comfortable with that at all.

With that said, if someone is offering something I really want and requests paypal "gift" I will usually oblige without comment, and I don't lose sleep over it. So maybe my ethics are a little soft on this one but I definitely prefer no "gifts" for true transactions.

That's my approach. I use PP tied to a CC, so when I pay by gift the fees are added on my end and the seller nets the full amount. Bottom line, it's not a gift (as much as I like and trust the folks here) and PP is not in business to provide their service to me for free by manipulation.

[sycks22]

I paid and got paid via paypal gift all the time in previous years until they shut down my gifting ability. I still use them all the time to pay / receive funds, but they take out their fees now. It kind of blows, but it's ok. The best thing about paypal is you get the money immediately and can ship the next day and don't have to worry about if the person is sending the check.

[tonyo]

Pete,
What prompted them to shut down your gifting ability?

[SMPEP]

My biggest issue with the non-gift option on Paypal is that they now report to the IRS. I very rarely sell anything at a profit, and frequently sell at a slight loss. I am a collector, not dealer. Yet the full amount of the sale shows up as taxable "income"? If this were buying and selling stocks you adjust these figures for your cost basis. But for baseball cards you're expected to pay full tax, even when selling at a loss?

Said differently, if I simply traded the cards I had for the ones I want, there is no tax. But if I trade the ones I have for cash, to buy the ones I want (because I can't arrange a direct trade of 1973 Topps cards for a T206), then I owe taxes on it?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

My biggest issue with the non-gift option on Paypal is that they now report to the IRS. I very rarely sell anything at a profit, and frequently sell at a slight loss. I am a collector, not dealer. Yet the full amount of the sale shows up as taxable "income"? If this were buying and selling stocks you adjust these figures for your cost basis. But for baseball cards you're expected to pay full tax, even when selling at a loss?

Said differently, if I simply traded the cards I had for the ones I want, there is no tax. But if I trade the ones I have for cash, to buy the ones I want (because I can't arrange a direct trade of 1973 Topps cards for a T206), then I owe taxes on it?

Don't you still have a "cost basis" on a card you sell and receive regular payment through paypal on? I can't imagine that all full time dealers are forced to report the full amount of a sale as profit.

[SetBuilder]

Yeah, good luck trying to use an electronic payment system other than PayPal.

I used Auctiva linked to Authorize.net once. It allowed me to accept CC payments through the Auctiva gateway.

Everyone avoided my auctions. I even got neutral feedbacks from people with comments like "He doesn't accept PayPal...beware".

Never again. PayPal is a monopoly and it is absolutely required to sell on eBay.

Why do you think eBay banned Google Checkout? They want zero competition.

[HRBAKER]

As a buyer I have actually used several other electronic payment options on ebay. It is rare but it does happen.

I guess I look at it like this; if I want to buy something at a store and they tell me the only way I can pay for it is using their credit card or account - I have two options, agree to their terms or don't buy it. I don't consider just taking it a viable option.

It actually happens at dept. stores quite often, "extra 25% off if you use your house credit card."

And I agree, they would love ZERO competition.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Yeah, good luck trying to use an electronic payment system other than PayPal.

Never again. PayPal is a monopoly and it is absolutely required to sell on eBay.

Originally Posted by tonyo

Also a bit of an aside since Leon mentioned ebay's near monopoly......I bought a card on ebay last night. When I went to pay, I was directed to Propay. Huh?... what's this? I back tracked looking for a paypal option (since I try to run my collecting through a seperate account tied to paypal), but didn't see one. Thought about emailing the seller to ask to use paypal, but decided to not go thru the hassle. It worked fine I suppose.

But it is true, I may hesitate to bid on an item, or bid less if I can't use paypal......just because I try to run my collecting through paypal.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

My biggest issue with the non-gift option on Paypal is that they now report to the IRS. I very rarely sell anything at a profit, and frequently sell at a slight loss. I am a collector, not dealer. Yet the full amount of the sale shows up as taxable "income"? If this were buying and selling stocks you adjust these figures for your cost basis. But for baseball cards you're expected to pay full tax, even when selling at a loss?

Said differently, if I simply traded the cards I had for the ones I want, there is no tax. But if I trade the ones I have for cash, to buy the ones I want (because I can't arrange a direct trade of 1973 Topps cards for a T206), then I owe taxes on it?

The threshold for a 1099 from Paypal is relatively high--over $20,000 in gross payment volume AND over 200 separate payments in a calendar year-- and if you are doing sales in excess of that threshold you need to speak to a competent accountant about getting everything squared away as a business.

[Leon]

Paypal gift is a different, less secure product than the regular paypal payments. I have no issue using it. If anyone thinks they are doing something wrong by using it then they shouldn't use it. Pretty easy decision.

[alanu]

I don't like the paypal fees, but I love the service anyway for the convenience.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Pete,
What prompted them to shut down your gifting ability?

Could be this from the Paypal User Agreement:

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

[HRBAKER]

Sort of like speeding tickets, sooner or later they take your license away.
My guess is that they don't spend a lot of time tracking it but when it starts to involve large sums eventually they will get around to it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Sort of like speeding tickets, sooner or later they take your license away.
My guess is that they don't spend a lot of time tracking it but when it starts to involve large sums eventually they will get around to it.

Now that you mention speeding tickets, I have another moral question for those that believe sending/receiveing PayPal gift is taking away from PayPal's revenue.

If you blow past a cop on the freeway at 85 mph (assuming speed limit is 65mph) and he didn't see you for whatever reason, do you feel morally obligated to pull over and admit to the cop you were speeding and ask for a ticket? After all, writing speeding tickets is one way that the local law enforcement generates revenue. Or is it okay to cheat (you were breaking the law) the local law enforcement out of their revenue?

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Could be this from the Paypal User Agreement:

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

Thanks, I was just curious what reason they cited...... I suppose they would have cited exactly what you posted ; P.U.A. 4.1

[Leon]

Great, I only recently came over to the dark side of actually using the paypal gift payments on anything but true gift-like payments (as our contests are, or at least I consider them to be that). I think I see clear cut issues so will refrain from it in the future unless the other party mandates it. If they do then I will probably just let it go, but I probably won't ask for it anymore in sales, or I will split the fees. For the record, and not that it matters, I do pay paypal fees almost daily, one way or another...so it isn't like they don't make good money off of me but I know that's not the point, they should. It's their business. That all being said, when there is nothing changing hands I will probably still use it.

[ArchStanton]

When I buy cards on this board or the PSA board, I nearly always use the payment owed option. I never read their definition before. I guess I have been misusing that option. I have been a paypal user for about as long as they have been around. They make my life easier, and I help them make money. I do not spend or receive a ton of money through paypal.

My local bank offers some services to me as a customer. They will give me paper rolls for my change or give me a money order or chashiers check. They don't make any money from that, but I am a good, long-time customer.


I plan to continue to use the payment owed option whenever I feel comfortable with a seller. If you have a T206 Abbaticchio blue sleeves to sell, I'll show you.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Here's a crazy idea, use payment owed instead of gift. Same results less guilt for those that feel guilty.

I have no remorse for using either and not paying fees. I have had to try to deal with them once and it was a nightmare, and when they required "electronic payments/Paypal" that took the cake for me.

Lee

[HRBAKER]

David,
Interesting question. One that would make for interesting debate in a college ethics course I assume. Besides there being plenty of other good reasons not to drive 85 (and I have and have paid for it) besides the potential for lost revenue if you are not caught there might be a nuance or two differences in the pair. I would have to think more about it. On the surface I would say; a.) the police departments reason to be is not revenue generation, unlike paypal, and b.) I am already paying for their "goods and services" by conscription, unlike paypal which I only pay for when I choose to use and pay for it if I have agreed to their Terms and Conditions, c.) the revenue in that instance is designed to be punitive and behavior modifying not to serve solely as a source of income.

At the end of the day, when you choose to speed you have chosen to break the law/rules/T&C of the road so to speak.
Very good question.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by bowlingshoegiverouterguy

Here's a crazy idea, use payment owed instead of gift. Same results less guilt for those that feel guilty.

I have no remorse for using either and not paying fees. I have had to try to deal with them once and it was a nightmare, and when they required "electronic payments/Paypal" that took the cake for me.

Lee

I had thought of that at one time but, irrespective of your degree of guilt or absence thereof, it's still the same violation of the User Agreement if you're selling something. The "payment owed" option is still a personal payment as opposed to a payment for goods.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Pete,
What prompted them to shut down your gifting ability?

I was just using it too much I think. It was great not paying the fees, but I see where you pay for a service.