Ethical question / Paypal

[celoknob]

When I am selling something I never ask for "gift"; I'm not comfortable with that at all.

With that said, if someone is offering something I really want and requests paypal "gift" I will usually oblige without comment, and I don't lose sleep over it. So maybe my ethics are a little soft on this one but I definitely prefer no "gifts" for true transactions.

[rainier2004]

I'm a very anal person and analyze the hell out of things like this topic and here is my logic:

PP gift is eligible for "family and friends" per their policy, not mine. On ebay I would never do gift, ever. On net54 I will do gift every time. You guys meet my definition of "friend" as I can trust you, some of you guys actually look out for me, I have communicated with several of you several times and if I bumped into a guy wearing a net54 shirt on the street, I certainly would say hi and be excited to talk to them. I feel comfortable w/o any coverage in the transaction and thats what it is for, per THEIR policy. To use someone's service you must abide by their rules, I consider that ethical irregardless of the law as I feel law and the history of law sheds shadow on ethic debates (I'm not bashing laws either, but ethics are a different issue).

The fact that their billion dollar companies, monopoly, etc is irrelevant to me but all about "taking down the man" too so to each their own. I'd be willing to pay other ways as well but pp gift is sooo easy.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

PP gift is eligible for "family and friends" per their policy, not mine. On ebay I would never do gift, ever. On net54 I will do gift every time. You guys meet my definition of "friend" as I can trust you, some of you guys actually look out for me, I have communicated with several of you several times and if I bumped into a guy wearing a net54 shirt on the street, I certainly would say hi and be excited to talk to them.

Man, now THAT is a juicy rationalization.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Man, now THAT is a juicy rationalization.

See how easy it is to see the other side of paypal gift

[HRBAKER]

If you’re making a purchase, there are 3 payment types:

Goods - Select this payment type when you’re paying for something that you didn’t buy on eBay.
Services - Use this payment type when your purchase is not a product but a service (for example, work performed for you by someone else).
eBay Items - Select this payment type to pay for things you buy on eBay.
When you make a purchase, the seller pays a small fee to receive your money.

If you’re sending a personal payment, payment types include:

Gift - Select this payment type when you’re sending money as a gift for a birthday or other special occasion.
Payment Owed - Use this payment type for things like reimbursing a friend for your share of a restaurant check, or repaying money that a family member loaned you.

This topic always makes for interesting discussion much like trying to define a "rookie" card or the great "To Slab or Not to Slab" dilemma.

[smtjoy]

I pretty much dont use it for most of the reasons listed. Many times I have purchased something from the BST and it list gift and I just pay the fee (if you have a balance no fee is charged) so that I get buyer protection and seller gets the full amount.

I think the seller just wants to get the total amount, I have had a buyer or two on here that paid for a card and I had to pay the fees which sucked, I always feel like when I sell a card $45 on the BST I should receive that amount and twice lately that has not happened I get $45 less the 4% fee. Anyone else have that issue?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Many times I have purchased something from the BST and it list gift and I just pay the fee (if you have a balance no fee is charged) so that I get buyer protection and seller gets the full amount.

I think the seller just wants to get the total amount, I have had a buyer or two on here that paid for a card and I had to pay the fees which sucked, I always feel like when I sell a card $45 on the BST I should receive that amount and twice lately that has not happened I get $45 less the 4% fee. Anyone else have that issue?

I've never had that option to have the fee waived with a balance...I need a balance/or link straight to bank account to send pp gift w/o a fee. Am I missing something?

Also, last I looked pp charged 2.9% plus 30 or 60 cents per transaction, did that go up?

[HRBAKER]

To me, it's the same thing as going into a store and changing the price tag on something. It's irrelevant how much money PP makes. The seller is enjoying all the benefits of using PP (instant access to funds from a confirmed buyer) but not paying for the service.

Tell a buyer you will accept a check or money order or ask them to pay the fees. It's a cost of doing business. Or have a cash or PP price.

On the other hand I guess if you work for free then you might expect other companies to do so.

It's human nature to want something for nothing.

I believe that ebay forces you to offer paypal as an option for payment, I don't think that they can force you to use it exclusively. Most if not all use it bc it is convenient - is that not worth something?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I believe that ebay forces you to offer paypal as an option for payment, I don't think that they can force you to use it exclusively. Most if not all use it bc it is convenient - is that not worth something?

That is a common misconception about eBay/PayPal. Ebay states that the buyer must accept some form of electronic payment, not necessarily PayPal. They have a list of approved payment companies on their site. They can't force you to accept PayPal. Yes, most use it because it is convenient.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by celoknob

When I am selling something I never ask for "gift"; I'm not comfortable with that at all.

With that said, if someone is offering something I really want and requests paypal "gift" I will usually oblige without comment, and I don't lose sleep over it. So maybe my ethics are a little soft on this one but I definitely prefer no "gifts" for true transactions.

That's my approach. I use PP tied to a CC, so when I pay by gift the fees are added on my end and the seller nets the full amount. Bottom line, it's not a gift (as much as I like and trust the folks here) and PP is not in business to provide their service to me for free by manipulation.

[sycks22]

I paid and got paid via paypal gift all the time in previous years until they shut down my gifting ability. I still use them all the time to pay / receive funds, but they take out their fees now. It kind of blows, but it's ok. The best thing about paypal is you get the money immediately and can ship the next day and don't have to worry about if the person is sending the check.

[tonyo]

Pete,
What prompted them to shut down your gifting ability?

[SMPEP]

My biggest issue with the non-gift option on Paypal is that they now report to the IRS. I very rarely sell anything at a profit, and frequently sell at a slight loss. I am a collector, not dealer. Yet the full amount of the sale shows up as taxable "income"? If this were buying and selling stocks you adjust these figures for your cost basis. But for baseball cards you're expected to pay full tax, even when selling at a loss?

Said differently, if I simply traded the cards I had for the ones I want, there is no tax. But if I trade the ones I have for cash, to buy the ones I want (because I can't arrange a direct trade of 1973 Topps cards for a T206), then I owe taxes on it?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

My biggest issue with the non-gift option on Paypal is that they now report to the IRS. I very rarely sell anything at a profit, and frequently sell at a slight loss. I am a collector, not dealer. Yet the full amount of the sale shows up as taxable "income"? If this were buying and selling stocks you adjust these figures for your cost basis. But for baseball cards you're expected to pay full tax, even when selling at a loss?

Said differently, if I simply traded the cards I had for the ones I want, there is no tax. But if I trade the ones I have for cash, to buy the ones I want (because I can't arrange a direct trade of 1973 Topps cards for a T206), then I owe taxes on it?

Don't you still have a "cost basis" on a card you sell and receive regular payment through paypal on? I can't imagine that all full time dealers are forced to report the full amount of a sale as profit.

[SetBuilder]

Yeah, good luck trying to use an electronic payment system other than PayPal.

I used Auctiva linked to Authorize.net once. It allowed me to accept CC payments through the Auctiva gateway.

Everyone avoided my auctions. I even got neutral feedbacks from people with comments like "He doesn't accept PayPal...beware".

Never again. PayPal is a monopoly and it is absolutely required to sell on eBay.

Why do you think eBay banned Google Checkout? They want zero competition.

[HRBAKER]

As a buyer I have actually used several other electronic payment options on ebay. It is rare but it does happen.

I guess I look at it like this; if I want to buy something at a store and they tell me the only way I can pay for it is using their credit card or account - I have two options, agree to their terms or don't buy it. I don't consider just taking it a viable option.

It actually happens at dept. stores quite often, "extra 25% off if you use your house credit card."

And I agree, they would love ZERO competition.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Yeah, good luck trying to use an electronic payment system other than PayPal.

Never again. PayPal is a monopoly and it is absolutely required to sell on eBay.

Originally Posted by tonyo

Also a bit of an aside since Leon mentioned ebay's near monopoly......I bought a card on ebay last night. When I went to pay, I was directed to Propay. Huh?... what's this? I back tracked looking for a paypal option (since I try to run my collecting through a seperate account tied to paypal), but didn't see one. Thought about emailing the seller to ask to use paypal, but decided to not go thru the hassle. It worked fine I suppose.

But it is true, I may hesitate to bid on an item, or bid less if I can't use paypal......just because I try to run my collecting through paypal.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

My biggest issue with the non-gift option on Paypal is that they now report to the IRS. I very rarely sell anything at a profit, and frequently sell at a slight loss. I am a collector, not dealer. Yet the full amount of the sale shows up as taxable "income"? If this were buying and selling stocks you adjust these figures for your cost basis. But for baseball cards you're expected to pay full tax, even when selling at a loss?

Said differently, if I simply traded the cards I had for the ones I want, there is no tax. But if I trade the ones I have for cash, to buy the ones I want (because I can't arrange a direct trade of 1973 Topps cards for a T206), then I owe taxes on it?

The threshold for a 1099 from Paypal is relatively high--over $20,000 in gross payment volume AND over 200 separate payments in a calendar year-- and if you are doing sales in excess of that threshold you need to speak to a competent accountant about getting everything squared away as a business.

[Leon]

Paypal gift is a different, less secure product than the regular paypal payments. I have no issue using it. If anyone thinks they are doing something wrong by using it then they shouldn't use it. Pretty easy decision.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Pete,
What prompted them to shut down your gifting ability?

Could be this from the Paypal User Agreement:

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

[HRBAKER]

Sort of like speeding tickets, sooner or later they take your license away.
My guess is that they don't spend a lot of time tracking it but when it starts to involve large sums eventually they will get around to it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Sort of like speeding tickets, sooner or later they take your license away.
My guess is that they don't spend a lot of time tracking it but when it starts to involve large sums eventually they will get around to it.

Now that you mention speeding tickets, I have another moral question for those that believe sending/receiveing PayPal gift is taking away from PayPal's revenue.

If you blow past a cop on the freeway at 85 mph (assuming speed limit is 65mph) and he didn't see you for whatever reason, do you feel morally obligated to pull over and admit to the cop you were speeding and ask for a ticket? After all, writing speeding tickets is one way that the local law enforcement generates revenue. Or is it okay to cheat (you were breaking the law) the local law enforcement out of their revenue?

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Could be this from the Paypal User Agreement:

"4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments."

Thanks, I was just curious what reason they cited...... I suppose they would have cited exactly what you posted ; P.U.A. 4.1

[Leon]

Great, I only recently came over to the dark side of actually using the paypal gift payments on anything but true gift-like payments (as our contests are, or at least I consider them to be that). I think I see clear cut issues so will refrain from it in the future unless the other party mandates it. If they do then I will probably just let it go, but I probably won't ask for it anymore in sales, or I will split the fees. For the record, and not that it matters, I do pay paypal fees almost daily, one way or another...so it isn't like they don't make good money off of me but I know that's not the point, they should. It's their business. That all being said, when there is nothing changing hands I will probably still use it.

[ArchStanton]

When I buy cards on this board or the PSA board, I nearly always use the payment owed option. I never read their definition before. I guess I have been misusing that option. I have been a paypal user for about as long as they have been around. They make my life easier, and I help them make money. I do not spend or receive a ton of money through paypal.

My local bank offers some services to me as a customer. They will give me paper rolls for my change or give me a money order or chashiers check. They don't make any money from that, but I am a good, long-time customer.


I plan to continue to use the payment owed option whenever I feel comfortable with a seller. If you have a T206 Abbaticchio blue sleeves to sell, I'll show you.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Here's a crazy idea, use payment owed instead of gift. Same results less guilt for those that feel guilty.

I have no remorse for using either and not paying fees. I have had to try to deal with them once and it was a nightmare, and when they required "electronic payments/Paypal" that took the cake for me.

Lee

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Pete,
What prompted them to shut down your gifting ability?

I was just using it too much I think. It was great not paying the fees, but I see where you pay for a service.