Was I Shilled??

[calvindog]

It's a wikipedia page which has been edited about 1000000 times by every sort of maniac in the world -- like you. And yet you'd 'reference' it? Really?

Do you know how easy it is to argue with a nonentity like yourself? I mean, really?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It's a wikipedia page which has been edited about 1000000 times by every sort of maniac in the world -- like you. And yet you'd 'reference' it? Really?

Do you know how easy it is to argue with a nonentity like yourself? I mean, really?

You remind me of Bruce. But I appreciate that you haven't started with the insulting emails.

In a weird sort of way, I respect you (and myself) too much to go much further into the personal attacks. I have some really funny ones, too. But I'll take the high road.

Perhaps we fight because I remain as anonymous as possible on here. It gives you license to attack my wealth, card collection and intelligence.

I am just going to agree to disagree about the whole shilling thing. Keep fighting the good fight. I hope you make the world a better place for me to collect in, even if I come across as totally unappreciative.

Goodnight Jeff!

Xoxo Paul

[calvindog]

And you remind me of Peter Chao. Except you're not Asian. And I've got some funny comments about you too -- just let me know when you want me to state them publicly.

Finally, I don't need any thanks from you nor do I deserve them. You happily claim to be isolated and selfish in your collecting and that's fine with me, nothing wrong with that. But when you publicly claim that shill bidding is not an issue to be concerned about and actually helps keep prices down and cards plentiful -- well, that's where I'm going to respond. Every person on this board has been a fraud victim one way or another through this hobby -- even you. To simply dismiss it as a cost of doing business is to simply be weak and a willing victim. That's one of the differences between me and you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter Chao was unique, I don't see the comparison.

As far as shill bidding goes, who here is willing to take a stand and not bid with houses or ebay sellers we suspect are guilty, when they have a card we want? And if we are not willing to do that, why rant and rave?

[calvindog]

Peter, that's not the point being discussed nor is it the sole duty of the victim to protect himself from fraud. But at the very least we should be able to identify fraud for what it is. Otherwise, what's the point in combating fraud if collectors actually think fraud helps them get the cards they want?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It does not excuse fraud, I agree, but at some point willing victims are complicit. Can one throw himself under a train and then fault the driver for not stopping?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It does not excuse fraud, I agree, but at some point willing victims are complicit. Can one throw himself under a train and then fault the driver for not stopping?

I don't think there are any proven auction houses that are shillers, just very strong suspects. If auction house X publicly said, "we shill and if you don't like it, don't bid w/ us," I'd bet a whole lot of buyers would boycott that auction house.

There's no question that shilling hurts buyers. It's amazing that intelligent people on the board don't care. In a way, I can see where these people are coming from. For example, there is a card X that someone wants, and the VCP for this card is $100. The buyer sets his snipe for $95. The seller shills the card to $93, and the buyer wins. Therefore, the buyer is thinking, not only did I buy the card for less than I valued it for, I bought it for less than VCP. I got a great deal, who cares if the card was shilled. However, if the card were not shilled, the buyer may have bought the card for $80. Therefore, the "VCP" for this card has been set to an artificially high level even w/ this sale of this card. If the buyer tries to sell this card at a later time, and does it through an honest auction, he may not get his $93 back. he may only get $80 this time, and naively think, "well, I only buy cards as a hobby and not an investment anyway, and I had $13 of fun when I owned the card, so who cares." And I believe that this is what Jeff means when he says that the shillers laugh their way to the bank when they hear this.