Was I Shilled??

[calvindog]

Yes, eliminating price fixing and overcharging has always led to....higher prices? Great critical thinking. And you wonder why you're poor?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, eliminating price fixing and overcharging has always led to....higher prices? Great critical thinking. And you wonder why you're poor?

For commodities, sure, you are right. But I am sure there are certain consignors who, absent assurances by certain auction houses that they will realize a certain minimum by hook or by crook (pun sorta intended), wouldn't consign in the first place.

[calvindog]

Not just commodities. When price fixing was eliminated in the art house auction world prices came down -- and people still consigned.

What I think you're trying to say is that the reason auction houses engage in fraud is that they need to get the consignments -- and if one guy is committing fraud then the next guy must as well in order to realize the same prices in his auction -- in order to continue getting consignments. All that is well and true but it doesn't excuse fraud, it just means that unless and until everyone stops cheating many others will feel the need to cheat too. Doesn't make it right and the last thing we should be doing on this thread is arguing for fraud to continue being a known and forgiven part of our hobby. There's just no good reason to ignore the fraud.

What people don't realize too, is good luck in selling your fraudulently inflated cards. We all 'think' we know what the cards are worth but our thinking is largely based on past recorded sales -- which are also affected by fraudulent selling practices. Ever wonder why when you sell a card on ebay that you bought at an auction it doesn't do as well?

[Peter_Spaeth]

There could be several reasons n addition to fraud that cards don't do as well on ebay. One, the seller is no longer a buyer, so the demand is less, particularly on non-commodity cards. Two, the bid levels in auction houses tend to result in higher prices. Three, people tend to be less rational in auctions than they do on ebay, for reasons I have never quite understood.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There could be several reasons n addition to fraud that cards don't do as well on ebay. One, the seller is no longer a buyer, so the demand is less, particularly on non-commodity cards. Two, the bid levels in auction houses tend to result in higher prices. Three, people tend to be less rational in auctions than they do on ebay, for reasons I have never quite understood.

I agree completely. And sellers or consignors can shill on ebay as well. But I think generally cards bought at auction houses don't tend to do as well on resale for reasons which include lack of fraud this time around. It's a fact that auction houses have pumped up sales' prices due to fraud. It's also a fact that upon resale those same cards -- when not helped by fraud of the auction house -- will result in lower prices.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, eliminating price fixing and overcharging has always led to....higher prices? Great critical thinking. And you wonder why you're poor?

My point was that if you eliminate shill bidding you would then see price fixing and overcharging as a result. How would you recommend we get rid of all the BINs on ebay and get back to a world where baseball card sellers felt comfortable letting the chips fall where they may on price at auction?

Also what is your secret to being rich and having a collection so good that you would say someone else's collection sucks?

[calvindog]

My secret is I don't spend hours twisting myself into a pretzel trying to convince myself and others that fraud in our hobby is a non-issue. Actually, now you're claiming that shill bidding is good for our hobby. Good logic.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

My secret is I don't spend hours twisting myself into a pretzel trying to convince myself and others that fraud in our hobby is a non-issue. Actually, now you're claiming that shill bidding is good for our hobby. Good logic.

Nope. just saying you shouldn't expect lower prices and more cards if you eliminate the fraud.

[calvindog]

And that's based on pure guesswork, not facts. If you simply removed the shill bidding beneath ceiling bids in auction house auctions the final hammer prices would have been lower on hundreds of cards over the years.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And that's based on pure guesswork, not facts. If you simply removed the shill bidding beneath ceiling bids in auction house auctions the final hammer prices would have been lower on hundreds of cards over the years.

As they say in ECON 101, "Assume a can opener."

[calvindog]

Another meaningless comment. Are you capable of embarrassment?