Was I Shilled??

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are only two ways that I know of to control shill bidding, and I don't see either as likely to happen: people stop bidding in auctions suspected of shill bidding; or a governmental enforcement action.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are only two ways that I know of to control shill bidding, and I don't see either as likely to happen: people stop bidding in auctions suspected of shill bidding; or a governmental enforcement action.

Believe me, one indictment won't stop it either. There needs to be a belief by auction house principals that there will be ramifications for their actions, not just a rare bit of enforcement of the law.

[ctownboy]

"I really don't think if we stopped all the shilling in the world that the prices of cards would go down. If anything, they would be less available because sellers would be less inclined to consign their items."

Really? I think prices would decrease fairly quickly. How much? I don't know but I think they WOULD go down.

I mean, there are some sellers out there who are probably into cards because they CAN shill their own auctions. Take that extra profit away and it isn't going to be worth their time to stay in that section of business. They will just move on to another scam.

Also, if cards are being shilled on eBay and the large auction houses and those prices are being picked up and used for things like VCP lists, what do you think would happen if all of a sudden the shill bids were NOT being placed and cards were selling for what they would without a shill? What if a $100 dollar shill bid card were actually only worth $75 dollars without the shill?

Nope, take shilling out and there would be fewer sellers, more cards on the market and more reasonable prices....

David

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Nope, take shilling out and there would be fewer sellers, more cards on the market and more reasonable prices....

Fewer sellers means fewer cards on the market, not more. We see this phenomenon on ebay -- when prices go down, we have many fewer auctions and much more high BINs.

[calvindog]

Yes, eliminating price fixing and overcharging has always led to....higher prices? Great critical thinking. And you wonder why you're poor?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, eliminating price fixing and overcharging has always led to....higher prices? Great critical thinking. And you wonder why you're poor?

For commodities, sure, you are right. But I am sure there are certain consignors who, absent assurances by certain auction houses that they will realize a certain minimum by hook or by crook (pun sorta intended), wouldn't consign in the first place.

[calvindog]

Not just commodities. When price fixing was eliminated in the art house auction world prices came down -- and people still consigned.

What I think you're trying to say is that the reason auction houses engage in fraud is that they need to get the consignments -- and if one guy is committing fraud then the next guy must as well in order to realize the same prices in his auction -- in order to continue getting consignments. All that is well and true but it doesn't excuse fraud, it just means that unless and until everyone stops cheating many others will feel the need to cheat too. Doesn't make it right and the last thing we should be doing on this thread is arguing for fraud to continue being a known and forgiven part of our hobby. There's just no good reason to ignore the fraud.

What people don't realize too, is good luck in selling your fraudulently inflated cards. We all 'think' we know what the cards are worth but our thinking is largely based on past recorded sales -- which are also affected by fraudulent selling practices. Ever wonder why when you sell a card on ebay that you bought at an auction it doesn't do as well?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, eliminating price fixing and overcharging has always led to....higher prices? Great critical thinking. And you wonder why you're poor?

My point was that if you eliminate shill bidding you would then see price fixing and overcharging as a result. How would you recommend we get rid of all the BINs on ebay and get back to a world where baseball card sellers felt comfortable letting the chips fall where they may on price at auction?

Also what is your secret to being rich and having a collection so good that you would say someone else's collection sucks?

[calvindog]

My secret is I don't spend hours twisting myself into a pretzel trying to convince myself and others that fraud in our hobby is a non-issue. Actually, now you're claiming that shill bidding is good for our hobby. Good logic.