Topics for discussion re: t206 Printing and errors

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

What would have been saved would be the original art, the color separations, and maybe the transparencies used to make the matrix to layout the stone.

Steve B

Steve, I would like to see what this stuff would have looked like. The Coupon images actually are incredibly similar to the T206's - I have a Bender/trees from each set and have compared them very closely.

[steve B]

If you've seen a type 1 photo covered with whiteout and pen lines you've seen a newspapers original art.

Most original art is nicer than that, we worked from originals of many types. Usually text arranged electronically, with photos pasted on. Or old fashioned drawn art depending on the customer.

In the 80's color separations were done by photographing the original through both the halftone screen and a colored filter. (Or just the filter for stuff that printed solid like many of the topps frames)

T206s may have been halftones taken from the horner etc photos with the rest painted on celluloid sheets.

The celluloids would have been converted to monochrome negatives and those used to make what were basically like iron ons which were used to layout the individual images on the stone. The little side and top center marks are remnants of the alignment marks during layout.

I think the largest single color image we did while I was there was a book cover for Navy recruiting. One image of a plane from above, which filled the entire book cover. The negatives used were full size, so picture a photo negative about 18x14 or so.

We did some maps in one color, non halftone that were roughly 28x34. again one negative for the whole thing. Yes, the camera was huge. and the room had to be kept very clean to avoid getting dust in the picture.

This page has a few pictures of the dept working on the negatives.
http://www.lithokrome.com/history.aspx

This one has a picture of a shop around 1910 showing the stones.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steve_frenkel/5145531535/

Steve B

[toppcat]

American Lithographic underwent an expansion in 1919 and then in 1931 shut it's NY facility and moved its operations to Buffalo. If I am not mistaken, they were moving presses in 1919 when one of them fell and crashed through the sidewalk and into the subway beneath. I would think those would be milestone dates for changing over presses.

[mrvster]

i collect the left over paper/print set up

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

American Lithographic underwent an expansion in 1919 and then in 1931 shut it's NY facility and moved its operations to Buffalo. If I am not mistaken, they were moving presses in 1919 when one of them fell and crashed through the sidewalk and into the subway beneath. I would think those would be milestone dates for changing over presses.

Perhaps, it would probably be time they changed the one that fell.

Lots of industrial equipment of the day was pretty expensive, and really got used until it just didn't work anymore. The move to Buffalo would have been a big change, and probably the best time for them to upgrade to plate presses rather than stone presses. The new stuff could have been setup fresh in Buffalo, and the worst of the old ones sold or scrapped in NY.

When I did industrial repairs I worked on a few machines that were from the 1930's and still in daily use in the 1990's. And a lot of machines from the 40's and 50's. Modern stuff is fantastic in what it can do, but doesn't last as long.

[Runscott]

Steve, thanks for the updates. I'm still having a tough time picturing what the oiled-up stones would look like, and also if they were scraped or cleaned rather than stored, what the 'cello' sheets or whatever would have looked like that must have been saved. Saving artwork or photos doesn't make sense to me, as every single dot of color had to end up in the same spot eventually on the card, so saving photos would have been useless.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm very interested in this process.

[t206blogcom]

I wonder if anyone who had access to the original presses, plates and paper ever tried printing additional sheets and cards at a later date? It's probably a long stretch, but I wonder if someone who had access to the above ever tried recreating the originals much later than 1909-1911. For example, when the price of the Wagner started to be $50 and higher.

Or I wonder if any of the original presses, plates and paper survived until recent history? I could see a corrupt dealer trying to recreate the high priced cards. Perhaps this is how the Doyle error came to be? If I'm not mistaken, the Doyle error wasn't discovered until decades later. Kind of makes you think.

[steve B]

Here's a fairly bad picture of a stone setup for production on an offset press.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...nting-87749138


And a current auction for a stone setup for proofing, or possibly a short run where the image was printed directly from the stone. Reversed image printing directly, normal image printing by offset. Modern presses don't usually print directly, but I think many of the old ones could.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Lith...item35bb4835dc

Original art is always saved since that's where you begin to print anything.

The picture taken through the screen and filter is the original halftone, and that's where the dot pattern comes from. Just like a photo negative if I have that and a print shop I can make an exact duplicate. We saved them for years in case a customer wanted to rerun something. (uncommon for us, but very common for many things. )

With the setup I'm familiar with the halftones are taped to an opaque plastic sheet the size of the plate. (On 81 fleer you can see the tape overlapping many of the pictures.) That made a negative that was used to make the plate. So it was possible to make a plate identical to one that wore out or became damaged.

The first link in an earlier post has a couple pictures of people working on large negatives at a light table, One showing two women is probably from the 50's or 60's. Things hadn't changed much, since the 30's, and were still the same in the late 70's.

I haven't found much info about the transfers, I may have to get going on a visit to the printing museum that's somewhat local.

Steve B