Topics for discussion re: t206 Printing and errors

[steve B]

Stones were and are expensive. So they typically were erased and reused once the job was over. If there was a print job that was ongoing, like a company ordering 10,000 letterheads every 3 months it would have been saved, but not a one time order.

What would have been saved would be the original art, the color separations, and maybe the transparencies used to make the matrix to layout the stone.

We saved our negatives for something like 10 years till silver went crazy in 81. Then most of it went to the recycler.

The machines would have been used until they either wore out or better ones came along. Considering how the technology was advancing I'd be surprised if much of it lasted into the 1930's.

Leftover paper? Not in a good print shop.
Any leftover would have been used-Either for press setup on later jobs if some parts had been printed or used for later jobs that required the same paper, like T205s or any of the large assortment of non-sports cards from ATC brands.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

What would have been saved would be the original art, the color separations, and maybe the transparencies used to make the matrix to layout the stone.

Steve B

Steve, I would like to see what this stuff would have looked like. The Coupon images actually are incredibly similar to the T206's - I have a Bender/trees from each set and have compared them very closely.

[steve B]

If you've seen a type 1 photo covered with whiteout and pen lines you've seen a newspapers original art.

Most original art is nicer than that, we worked from originals of many types. Usually text arranged electronically, with photos pasted on. Or old fashioned drawn art depending on the customer.

In the 80's color separations were done by photographing the original through both the halftone screen and a colored filter. (Or just the filter for stuff that printed solid like many of the topps frames)

T206s may have been halftones taken from the horner etc photos with the rest painted on celluloid sheets.

The celluloids would have been converted to monochrome negatives and those used to make what were basically like iron ons which were used to layout the individual images on the stone. The little side and top center marks are remnants of the alignment marks during layout.

I think the largest single color image we did while I was there was a book cover for Navy recruiting. One image of a plane from above, which filled the entire book cover. The negatives used were full size, so picture a photo negative about 18x14 or so.

We did some maps in one color, non halftone that were roughly 28x34. again one negative for the whole thing. Yes, the camera was huge. and the room had to be kept very clean to avoid getting dust in the picture.

This page has a few pictures of the dept working on the negatives.
http://www.lithokrome.com/history.aspx

This one has a picture of a shop around 1910 showing the stones.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steve_frenkel/5145531535/

Steve B

[toppcat]

American Lithographic underwent an expansion in 1919 and then in 1931 shut it's NY facility and moved its operations to Buffalo. If I am not mistaken, they were moving presses in 1919 when one of them fell and crashed through the sidewalk and into the subway beneath. I would think those would be milestone dates for changing over presses.

[mrvster]

i collect the left over paper/print set up

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

American Lithographic underwent an expansion in 1919 and then in 1931 shut it's NY facility and moved its operations to Buffalo. If I am not mistaken, they were moving presses in 1919 when one of them fell and crashed through the sidewalk and into the subway beneath. I would think those would be milestone dates for changing over presses.

Perhaps, it would probably be time they changed the one that fell.

Lots of industrial equipment of the day was pretty expensive, and really got used until it just didn't work anymore. The move to Buffalo would have been a big change, and probably the best time for them to upgrade to plate presses rather than stone presses. The new stuff could have been setup fresh in Buffalo, and the worst of the old ones sold or scrapped in NY.

When I did industrial repairs I worked on a few machines that were from the 1930's and still in daily use in the 1990's. And a lot of machines from the 40's and 50's. Modern stuff is fantastic in what it can do, but doesn't last as long.

[Runscott]

Steve, thanks for the updates. I'm still having a tough time picturing what the oiled-up stones would look like, and also if they were scraped or cleaned rather than stored, what the 'cello' sheets or whatever would have looked like that must have been saved. Saving artwork or photos doesn't make sense to me, as every single dot of color had to end up in the same spot eventually on the card, so saving photos would have been useless.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm very interested in this process.

[t206blogcom]

I wonder if anyone who had access to the original presses, plates and paper ever tried printing additional sheets and cards at a later date? It's probably a long stretch, but I wonder if someone who had access to the above ever tried recreating the originals much later than 1909-1911. For example, when the price of the Wagner started to be $50 and higher.

Or I wonder if any of the original presses, plates and paper survived until recent history? I could see a corrupt dealer trying to recreate the high priced cards. Perhaps this is how the Doyle error came to be? If I'm not mistaken, the Doyle error wasn't discovered until decades later. Kind of makes you think.