Could PSA really authentic this ball?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thekingofclout

I've worked for a California Casino for 25 years now and I can't tell you how many times I've had irate customers acussing us of cheating them out of their $120 as "it's impossible to lose six hands in a row!" I always ask the question "why would a company that does a few hundred million a year in business cheat you out of $120?"

Heritage Auctions did over $700 MILLION last year! Does anyone really think that they would knowingly try and scam ANY of their customers out of a $100 baseball? Or even a $10,000 Baseball for that matter! SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.

It seems to me that they may have a problem with the employee/s that heads their internet sports auctions. But to continue to bash them over and over again has gotten very, very, old.

I've never bid in a Heritage auction nor have I met any of their employees, but I would believe what Leon says of Chris Ivy and Heritage... "There is 0 doubt in my mind they will stand behind whatever they do."

Just to clarify a bit here,, assuming they did do $700 million, that is the entire company, not the sports memorabilia division. And that figure is probably the gross total sales of all their auctions, not their auction cut, not their net. Am I right King?
And I have never bid in a Heritage auction either and apparently will never be able to now.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Just to clarify a bit here,, assuming they did do $700 million, that is the entire company, not the sports memorabilia division. And that figure is probably the gross total sales of all their auctions, not their auction cut, not their net. Am I right King?
And I have never bid in a Heritage auction either and apparently will never be able to now.

The 700 million is the gross sales for the whole company. My guess is their take would be 25%-30% of that. Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Leon

The 700 million is the gross sales for the whole company. My guess is their take would be 25%-30% of that. Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

Amen to that... these consant accusers are doing more harm than good for the hobby. As Jimmy pointed out, their motives are completely self-serving as opposed to altruistic. Going after the people who get it right 95% of the time does not provide a good long-term prognosis for our hobby. The hobby will fizzle and die if potential new collectors are driven away by these scare tactics.

There will inevitably be a few mistakes made. The examples rhetorically pointed out in this forum represent less than one tenth of 1% of the material that's been authenticated by the reputable outfits. Instead of dwelling on minutia, why not look at the bigger picture and focus on eliminating the real corruption within the autograph business?

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As Jimmy pointed out, their motives are completely self-serving as opposed to altruistic.

As someone who doesn't buy autographs, I'm only posting this out of my own ignorance and curiosity. A number of times in various threads it has been said the posters' motives are self-serving but no one explains why their motives are self-serving. I may be incredibly dense on this, but how are their motives self-serving?

Thanks

Max

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by baseballart

As someone who doesn't buy autographs, I'm only posting this out of my own ignorance and curiosity. A number of times in various threads it has been said the posters' motives are self-serving but no one explains why their motives are self-serving. I may be incredibly dense on this, but how are their motives self-serving?

Thanks

Max

Self-serving, because they have a vendetta against the respected/established authentication companies. Each of these posts furthers their ultimate mission (which is to bring down the 2 big authentication companies).

Virtually every post these individuals make contains the same exact message. You can predict in advance of reading the post, that they will be bashing PSA or Spence (and not one of the criminally-intent forgery outfits). You can predict the subject matter and person's stance, simply by seeing the name of the poster. The content of the posts has become redundant and almost irrelevant. Not sure about the origin for these hostilities, but I assume it's because PSA and/or Spence rejected their highly prized / high-valued items at some point.

[travrosty]

But we don't these type of protests against someone who only posts coaches corner or morales items. Why?

Isn't that self serving also?

Maybe the people who don't like psa or jsa items shown are those with a lot of psa or jsa certs and don't want those certs to become worthless.

The other side of the coin is just as interesting, but only one side gets criticized for focusing ONLY on one group. the other side is free to go after only one group all day long. Probably because nobody here owns any coaches corner/morales items and they don't have anything to lose.

Whenever a coaches corner or morales thread opens up, i never see protests. I take it you don't feel the same way about our friend chris williams when he mentions morales, coaches corner and others but NEVER psa or jsa. why isn't he guilty of the same transgressions? Why don't you take him to task.

I don't take him to task for it because he is free to post what he wants, but so am I, and the notion that for every one psa or jsa I must show one of something else is absurd.

When I see a CC or Morales thread, I don't protest, it's fine if someone wants to criticize coaches corner or morales, but mention psa or jsa in a thread, then hell breaks loose and it's called bashing.

There are sacred cows and for good reasons I guess, too much money at stake. I don't anything tied up into any certs from any side. I am the impartial third party.

I have never made a cent authenticating and I have no certs (stock) to rise or fall based on the performance of any authentication company.

Again, why is it self serving, how have i served myself when I have made nothing off of it?

it is just that you like psa and jsa and you don't like people showing their mistakes. that's all it is. so shoot the messenger.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not sure about the origin for these hostilities, but I assume it's because PSA and/or Spence rejected their highly prized / high-valued items at some point.

Hmmm...
Perhaps it's because PSA and/or Spence authenticated their actually forged, now worthless items at some point.

[perezfan]

Can't blame you for being pissed off at them... I would be too. Regarding the '27 Yankee Ball, I believe that the Spence LOA was executed pretty much during his "infancy period" (when he was still a one-man show). Is that right? I dont think there's much chance it would have passed, knowing what they know today. Apparently (and unfortunately) it fooled a lot of smart people at the time...

To Travis' point, the CC threads also get monotonous, and there have been numerous valid complaints about their frequency and redundancy.

The reason that there is more of a backlash against attacking the "Big Two" is (IMO) two-fold...

1. They get it right well over 90% of the time. Their mistakes are typically honest mistakes. Granted, there may be some dumb ones and brain-lapses, but there is not the criminal intent (which cannot be said for the "other guys").

2. To go after the honest faction of authenticators hurts the hobby long-term. If new collectors are shying away from this endless negativity, the autograph collecting world will shrink and fizzle. Not good for any of the parties reading this...

Yes- they do make mistakes. It's the nature of those mistakes that differentiates the two.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Leon

The 700 million is the gross sales for the whole company. My guess is their take would be 25%-30% of that. Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

Very well written, Leon.

You see, Leon, bashing PSA/JSA, HA, etc., is fashionable. If someone wants to criticize PSA, JSA, HA, etc., that is their right here. But according to Travis the dollars spent on autographs certed by Morales, Taylor and Max are irrelevant; they don't count.

From what I understand the two items in question were removed. Did anyone consider that maybe PSA rejected those items and HA just got around to removing them? Two items out of how many auctions?

Geez, I haven't seen Coach's Corner (Lee Trythall & Scott Malack) removing any auction listing that was questioned. But, of course, they would be out of business if all of the bad auctions were removed.

Maybe Travis can explain why Todd Mueller was informed that the below Derek Jeter signed photograph was a forgery and that he never removed it. It sold for $66.00. The amount of the winning bid is not the issue here. The issue here is that it was not removed.

TM-Jeter-Forgery-1.jpg

[thekingofclout]

In regards to any collectors who have been barred from auction houses after bad-mouthing them on public forums... Just what don't you get about that? Really? Freedom of Speech? You got it. As Leon states; "put your name to it and you can say just about anything you want to." But your Freedom of Speech at Net54 does NOT make you exempt from an auction house's decision to exclude you from participating in their auctions.

When players at the casino in which I work, start accusing the casino/dealer of cheating, we bar them... immediately! I get the same "Freedom of Speech"
crap from them as well. I answer "Your Right. No problem. Go to a public park and say what ever the Hell you want about us. But this is private property and you are not going rip us and scream "CHEATERS" in our own house... SECURITY"

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thekingofclout

In regards to any collectors who have been barred from auction houses after bad-mouthing them on public forums... Just what don't you get about that? Really? Freedom of Speech? You got it. As Leon states; "put your name to it and you can say just about anything you want to." But your Freedom of Speech at Net54 does NOT make you exempt from an auction house's decision to exclude you from participating in their auctions.

When players at the casino in which I work, start accusing the casino/dealer of cheating, we bar them... immediately! I get the same "Freedom of Speech"
crap from them as well. I answer "Your Right. No problem. Go to a public park and say what ever the Hell you want about us. But this is private property and you are not going rip us and scream "CHEATERS" in our own house... SECURITY"

I think pointing out an error in a public forum is not the same as bad mouthing them. Errors were pointed out and people were barred as a follow up. If they did not make errors then nothing would have been pointed out. But they did make errors and they grudgingly acknowledged those errors by removing the items.

[travrosty]

its because they havent fixed the problem, they knew about it for a long long time, and still havent fixed it.

to only go after the 'bad guys' is ridiculous, because who is bad, who is good? do we have to limit our discussion to convicted criminals so no one can question that we are going after some bad?

Instead of that, I go after BAD PROBLEMS with the hobby, whether the entity responsible is good or bad, or in the middle.

If people don't like it that we had to show stuff a dozen times about this one auction house, well, then you can blame the auction house for that, because they had ample, time, opportunity to fix the problem, and they chose to wait it out, they thought we would get tired and it would blow over.

It took numerous, numerous mentions to get them to do anything. i am sick of posting heritage's autographs that look funky and have a precert or auction loa with them also, but in order to get results and reform, what would i do instead??????????

sending them a private email discussing my concerns not only got me nowhere, but i was told to go away. I tried to do it quietly so no one could know and it wouldnt be a big deal, but they would have none of that.

As far as the positive side of the hobby, i think getting heritage to stop this practice of precerts and auction loa's where there is none is a monumental POSITIVE thing for the hobby. Or is it a negative thing? why would it be a negative thing if they started practicing truth in advertising? we demand it everywhere else.

All i have ever done is stuck to the facts with heritage. if they are friends of someone and people don't like it, i am sorry, then there should just be a list of who we can and who we can't criticize when we see something going on in the hobby that we feel is wrong.

If they had corrected the problem, what could I post about them. I agree, if I continue posting about a problem that was corrected, that would be overkill, but it continues to go on, doesn't it?

Is there anybody on this board that thinks what heritage is doing with advertising precerts and auction loa's when the company hasn't looked at the items yet with these preview and live items is NOT wrong? anyone? I would just like to know.

and if people agree that this practice isn't kosher, why go after the people that bring it up? It's hard enough to put yourself out there open to the slings and arrows that inevitable come your way when you stick your neck out and point out a huge auction house and I am what, one little person. It's intimidating enough.

That's why a lot of people never come forward, and some of these things continue to go on for a long time. People are afraid and don't want to get involved.

i never said heritage is ripping people off. but what they are doing IS a problem.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=house+cards

Read this thread from beginning to end. Many card buyers saw what they perceived to be a problem, and the auction house defended their actions a few times, but it was only after a dozen people continously posted over and over again, over 14 pages worth on a 20 page post, before the auction house said they will not do it that way anymore.

I didn't see anyone say "just go after the bad guys."
why is that?

Why let Huggins and Scott squirm (they are good people too!) but defend Heritage and to basically say 'let's move on'?

Gosh I am going to get in trouble for thinking out loud again.

[Leon]

Travis- As I said, no problem talking about any company or any person on this forum as long as your name is out here (and it is). There is NO issue with that. I do think a lot of what you are doing is good. I think Heritage, from what they said on this board publicly, is reviewing their policies in this area. I think you should be commended for that. This board has been responsible for some change in the hobby and that is not a bad thing. Total transparency is a good thing. I would politely suggest that you KEEP up the good fight while at the same time sharing some of the GOOD in your hobby too. If you spew a lot of negativity/fraud then it is only fair to also spew the good news too. Just throw us a crumb every now and then ..

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Leon

Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

Amen.

And might I also add that there are still such things as good old honest mistakes (I make them all the time). Making another mistake later, even if it is the same mistake, is not necessarily indicative of a conspiracy or a refusal to correct the issue. (I type "teh" instead of "the" all the time, and will continue to do so, not because I'm a willfully bad typist, but because I'm clumsy). In cases like these, where a mistake is made, pointed out, and corrected/removed, what harm is done?

And just because a public apology was not made for the mistake does not make it a conspiracy, nor does the lack of a personal "thank you" for pointing out the mistake. It's nice to be thanked, and maybe even expected among gentlemen, but not required. The lack of a thank-you may be indicitave of one's character or how the mistake was pointed out, but certainly is not wholesale license to mount an attack campaign on the supposed offender. It is possible to point out mistakes without demanding that the whole establishment be razed.

[Vintagedegu]

/

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

I type "teh" instead of "the" all the time, and will continue to do so, not because I'm a willfully bad typist, but because I'm clumsy.

But do you put yourself forward as "the world's best typist," and claim that any typed material is virtually worthless unless it's submitted to you for re-typing?

I thought not.