So, what's an autograph collector to do? LONG POST AHEAD

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Let me ask a practical question of the board: In your opinon(s), what's a high-end autograph collector to do?

Wayne Walker

I have repeated this many times and HR (thanks for the plug) has backed me up.
Buy from the known entities in the field. There are a number of dealers with impeccable reputations who have been around for a long time. These dealers are as good or better than the TPA's, so if you consistently buy from them, chances are you will be able to build a very nice collection.
Since I have said this statement so many times, I think I will retire it for at least a while. Stay with the good, knowledgable dealers. Save the TPA money that you would be spending. Remember if you buy a TPA autograph on ebay, you are paying for that TPA examination fee, the dealer is just passing along his cost to you. That is part of the reason why TPA autographs are selling for higher prices.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I have repeated this many times and HR (thanks for the plug) has backed me up.
Buy from the known entities in the field. There are a number of dealers with impeccable reputations who have been around for a long time. These dealers are as good or better than the TPA's, so if you consistently buy from them, chances are you will be able to build a very nice collection.
Since I have said this statement so many times, I think I will retire it for at least a while. Stay with the good, knowledgable dealers. Save the TPA money that you would be spending. Remember if you buy a TPA autograph on ebay, you are paying for that TPA examination fee, the dealer is just passing along his cost to you. That is part of the reason why TPA autographs are selling for higher prices.

This is good advice, but can you honestly tell me that I'm saving money by going to Kevin Keating's website? I understand that he has a great reputation, but if I'm not paying for that reputation, I can't understand why the prices on his site are higher than any other outlet I can find.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

This is good advice, but can you honestly tell me that I'm saving money by going to Kevin Keating's website? I understand that he has a great reputation, but if I'm not paying for that reputation, I can't understand why the prices on his site are higher than any other outlet I can find.

Saving money compared to what? Kevin typically has very nice items and he is proud of them. There are other good options which have been listed many times, depends on what you want. But I can tell you that you're saving money going there as opposed to buying a non-genuine item with a cert somewhere else.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

This is good advice, but can you honestly tell me that I'm saving money by going to Kevin Keating's website? I understand that he has a great reputation, but if I'm not paying for that reputation, I can't understand why the prices on his site are higher than any other outlet I can find.

I listed dealers that I know maintain authentic inventory. What else is more important than that.
Dealers can and do charge what they want.
I won't defend or attack anyone's pricing, the decision to buy from him is obviously up to you.
In the interests of openness, Kevin does buy from me.

[Exhibitman]

I tend to straddle the fence on this issue.

I do my homework. I study the signatures I go after and I do not buy unless I am completely comfortable with it regardless of TPA opinions.

I also buy the TPA cert. I use TPAs all the time. Regardless of personal opinions, they are accepted by the vast majority of collectors and create a resale market. I may not like PSA but if PSA will bless an item I know I can flip it into the "PSA Nation" of collectors who will buy it without a question.

Unfortunately, anything other than signed in your presence is a bit of a Fox Mulder "I want to believe" leap of faith.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I tend to straddle the fence on this issue.

I do my homework. I study the signatures I go after and I do not buy unless I am completely comfortable with it regardless of TPA opinions.

I also buy the TPA cert. I use TPAs all the time. Regardless of personal opinions, they are accepted by the vast majority of collectors and create a resale market. I may not like PSA but if PSA will bless an item I know I can flip it into the "PSA Nation" of collectors who will buy it without a question.

Unfortunately, anything other than signed in your presence is a bit of a Fox Mulder "I want to believe" leap of faith.

Totally agree on all points.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I listed dealers that I know maintain authentic inventory. What else is more important than that.
Dealers can and do charge what they want.
I won't defend or attack anyone's pricing, the decision to buy from him is obviously up to you.
In the interests of openness, Kevin does buy from me.

You're right, nothing is more important than authenticity, but price is always a factor. My point is that, while you said earlier that dealers are pricing into their sales the cost of a TPA, the prices I'm seeing on the lists of the reputable dealers you have mentioned all seem to price their opinion into their numbers, nobody more so than Keating. He has some amazing stuff that I want, but not at those prices.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

You're right, nothing is more important than authenticity, but price is always a factor. My point is that, while you said earlier that dealers are pricing into their sales the cost of a TPA, the prices I'm seeing on the lists of the reputable dealers you have mentioned all seem to price their opinion into their numbers, nobody more so than Keating. He has some amazing stuff that I want, but not at those prices.

If you could magically remove all the bogus autographs from the hobby, thereby exposing the true rarity of the good ones, perhaps the prices asked by the handful of dealers with the golden reputations wouldn't seem so high all of a sudden. They know just how hard and expensive really great, legitimate stuff is to replace. The presence in the market of bad material drives the prices down for everything, good and bad alike. Each individual has to make buying decisions based on his situation and preferences, of course, but a truer perspective of the market value of genuine items would be revealed in a universe of only those competing with each other.
Hank Thomas

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

This is good advice, but can you honestly tell me that I'm saving money by going to Kevin Keating's website? I understand that he has a great reputation, but if I'm not paying for that reputation, I can't understand why the prices on his site are higher than any other outlet I can find.

+1

I've been interested in several items on his site before, but have only bought once from him and it was a $40 autograph that was the best example of a $25 dollar name I could find. There are several autographs I am interested in he has, but I usually just end up being patient, doing a lot of research on the signature, and finding it elsewhere.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by mschwade

+1

I've been interested in several items on his site before, but have only bought once from him and it was a $40 autograph that was the best example of a $25 dollar name I could find. There are several autographs I am interested in he has, but I usually just end up being patient, doing a lot of research on the signature, and finding it elsewhere.

Kevin's been one of the largest volume vintage autograph dealers in the country for about 20 years now, so I guess his business model works for him. He's not making his living on $25 autographs, that's for sure. As a general proposition, I've never understood complaints about a dealer's prices. If you're not interested in an item, what do you care about his price? If you're interested in an item but can find it cheaper elsewhere, as in the example above, what do you care about his price? And if you're interested in an item but can't find it cheaper elsewhere, how can you complain about his price? So what's the point, exactly?
Hank Thomas

[chaddurbin]

i've checked out keating's site, some good stuff and i've never complained...he can ask whatever he wants. i figured for the price tho i can buy 3 same pieces from jsa or psa/dna and at least one of them is authentic #lawofaverage.

wayne--thx for the link to ur images. i enjoyed looking through them, the old and new sigs.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Kevin's been one of the largest volume vintage autograph dealers in the country for about 20 years now, so I guess his business model works for him. He's not making his living on $25 autographs, that's for sure. As a general proposition, I've never understood complaints about a dealer's prices. If you're not interested in an item, what do you care about his price? If you're interested in an item but can find it cheaper elsewhere, as in the example above, what do you care about his price? And if you're interested in an item but can't find it cheaper elsewhere, how can you complain about his price? So what's the point, exactly?
Hank Thomas

I wouldn't necessarily say I was complaining, but agreeing that I think his reputation is built into his price. He has a reputation as one of the most knowledgeable dealers and reputation of having nice stuff, but also has a reputation of having higher than average prices.

"If you're interested in an item but can find it cheaper elsewhere, as in the example above, what do you care about his price?"

I care about his price because there are several items I would want right now because of the quality of the item and the availability (can't find anywhere else at the time), but often times his price doesn't even leave me "on the fence". And I am not talking about just a $25 dollar autograph. My best example was a Pat Collins last year.. He had one listed, and I believe still does, at $1500. I really wanted it, but remained patient and ended up getting one six months later just as nice, if not nicer imo, for right under $1000. Had he had it a little more reasonably priced at lets say $1200, it might have been mine right now. Believe me, I'm not trying to knock Kevin or his pricing, I think he is great and I think his assistant Nitsa is great, but maybe financially, I am not in his target market. And that's fine, I'll still look at his site to fill holes and if I can bring him business, I will.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by mschwade

I care about his price because there are several items I would want right now because of the quality of the item and the availability (can't find anywhere else at the time), but often times his price doesn't even leave me "on the fence". And I am not talking about just a $25 dollar autograph. My best example was a Pat Collins last year.. He had one listed, and I believe still does, at $1500. I really wanted it, but remained patient and ended up getting one six months later just as nice, if not nicer imo, for right under $1000. Had he had it a little more reasonably priced at lets say $1200, it might have been mine right now. Believe me, I'm not trying to knock Kevin or his pricing, I think he is great and I think his assistant Nitsa is great, but maybe financially, I am not in his target market. And that's fine, I'll still look at his site to fill holes and if I can bring him business, I will.

You actually weren't complaining, that was directed at the previous and other posts in the past that took Kevin to task for his prices. And I think you've explained the dynamics at work here pretty well with your personal example. You were willing to be patient and, more importantly, bring some work AND your hard-earned knowledge of the marketplace to bear in getting an acceptable substitute at a better price. I don't think collectors with your expertise are Kevin's primary targeted market. His tremendous inventory offers about as much of a "one-stop shopping" experience as you can find in the vintage autograph hobby. Also, the high end of his stock, all those amazing one-of-a-kind pieces, are anybody's guess as to true market value, and if you really want one, you're probably never going to find another quite like it anywhere else, and that's a big part of his business, too. As for your Pat Collins example, did you at least try to find out his best price for that? I'm just guessing here, but I'd be willing to bet that could have been had without any haggling at all for $1,200, and with some back and forth perhaps even closer to $1,000. You know how it works. He can be stubborn, sometimes, but he's not stupid, either, and I've seen him wheel and deal to make it work many times at the shows we do together, so I know it can be done. Anyway, good discussion about the hobby we love.
Hank

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

As for your Pat Collins example, did you at least try to find out his best price for that? I'm just guessing here, but I'd be willing to bet that could have been had without any haggling at all for $1,200, and with some back and forth perhaps even closer to $1,000. You know how it works. He can be stubborn, sometimes, but he's not stupid, either, and I've seen him wheel and deal to make it work many times at the shows we do together, so I know it can be done. Anyway, good discussion about the hobby we love.
Hank

To be honest with you, I don't think I ever did. I think all the dialogue surrounding the Collins was with Nitsa and she had told me that she didn't know how much negotiating he would be able to do on it because they had been selling their Collins they had in inventory and this was the nicest example he had.

I also remember a regular customer of his telling me that he'll negotiate a lot more at shows than he will over the web.