The BCCG problem

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mintacular

BCCG adds confusion to the marketplace for newer/novice collectors

Pat, just the opposite is true. Nobody has added more confustion to the marketplace than PSA. Go look at the very first issue of Beckett. It came out years before PSA was ever in business. In that magazine, there is a 5 point grading scale with a definition for each grade - Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent and Mint.

Notice you don't see Poor, VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM-MT, etc. There were only 5 grades and the system worked. Then came PSA and they told us we've been doing it wrong and that there were 10 grades. BULL$HIT!

I can't say for sure Beckett was the first to define the grading scale, but it's the first time I've ever seen it in print. So, if they defined the grading scale, years before PSA (or any other TPG) shouldn't they have the right to change it? Absolutley! It's THEIRS! I just don't see how the OP can say Beckett "inflated numerical grades" when obviously PSA did it first by going from a 5 point scale to a 10 point scale, and then from a 10 point scale to a 19 point scale.

[campyfan39]

I agree that PSA is to blame for the confusion by expanding the scale from 1-5 to 1-10

[HRBAKER]

If there is a BCCG problem then it's a small one.
Few cards and even fewer folks who probably care.
I don't think they've graded enough cards to cause confusion.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If I submit a card to PSA, it could come back one of 46 different grades. And you guys think BCCG is confusing?

PSA Authentic
PSA 1
PSA 1 MK
PSA 1 OC
PSA 1 MC
PSA 1.5
PSA 2
PSA 2 MK
PSA 2 OC
PSA 2 MC
PSA 2.5
PSA 3
PSA 3 MK
PSA 3 OC
PSA 3 MC
PSA 3.5
PSA 4
PSA 4 MK
PSA 4 OC
PSA 4 MC
PSA 4.5
PSA 5
PSA 5 MK
PSA 5 OC
PSA 5 MC
PSA 5.5
PSA 6
PSA 6 MK
PSA 6 OC
PSA 6 MC
PSA 6.5
PSA 7
PSA 7 MK
PSA 7 OC
PSA 7 MC
PSA 7.5
PSA 8
PSA 8 MK
PSA 8 OC
PSA 8 MC
PSA 8.5
PSA 9
PSA 9 MK
PSA 9 OC
PSA 9 MC
PSA 10

[HRBAKER]

David,
That's a heck of a lot of grades but yet I think most folks who care about graded cards have a pretty good handle on it.

Jeff

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

David,
That's a heck of a lot of grades but yet I think most folks who care about graded cards have a pretty good handle on it.

Jeff

Jeff,

Absolutely agreed. That's why I don't understand the intent of the original post. People buying graded cards should be aware of the TPGs grading scale beforehand and, if not, should educate themselves before making a purchase. If the OP wants to inform folks about BCCG's grading scale, then that is terrific. However, to make it sound like BCCG is at fault for anything is absurd.

Also, in my post above I forgot the PD and the ST qualifier so make that 64 different grades that a PSA card could receive.

[HANKCADDY]

you forgot PD

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If I submit a card to PSA, it could come back one of 46 different grades. And you guys think BCCG is confusing?

PSA Authentic
PSA 1
PSA 1 MK
PSA 1 OC
PSA 1 MC
PSA 1.5
PSA 2
PSA 2 MK
PSA 2 OC
PSA 2 MC
PSA 2.5
PSA 3
PSA 3 MK
PSA 3 OC
PSA 3 MC
PSA 3.5
PSA 4
PSA 4 MK
PSA 4 OC
PSA 4 MC
PSA 4.5
PSA 5
PSA 5 MK
PSA 5 OC
PSA 5 MC
PSA 5.5
PSA 6
PSA 6 MK
PSA 6 OC
PSA 6 MC
PSA 6.5
PSA 7
PSA 7 MK
PSA 7 OC
PSA 7 MC
PSA 7.5
PSA 8
PSA 8 MK
PSA 8 OC
PSA 8 MC
PSA 8.5
PSA 9
PSA 9 MK
PSA 9 OC
PSA 9 MC
PSA 10

[theseeker]

I'm not a PSA fan. However, their 1-10 scale was established as the industy standard by virtue of their early, dominant entry into a fledgling market. Beckett's use of the past and present standard of a 1-5 grading scale for it's card price guide and a 1-10 grading scale for it's premium grading service is all well and good. BUT, the use of a 1-5 grading scale that starts at 6 through 10, for a substandard service branch, is an obvious attempt at deception. It sets up an avenue for unethical sellers to submit cards to BCCG with the intent to deceive prospective buyers. Other than that, there is no real reason for anyone to use that particular service AND Beckett's knows it. I really lost all repect for Beckett's when they hatched that plan.

Yeah, sure, as always, it's buyer beware. It's also yet another industry eyesore stemming from greed and adding to an ever declining market.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by theseeker

I'm not a PSA fan. However, their 1-10 scale was established as the industy standard by virtue of their early, dominant entry into a fledgling market. Beckett's use of the past and present standard of a 1-5 grading scale for it's card price guide and a 1-10 grading scale for it's premium grading service is all well and good. BUT, the use of a 1-5 grading scale that starts at 6 through 10, for a substandard service branch, is an obvious attempt at deception. It sets up an avenue for unethical sellers to submit cards to BCCS with the intent to deceive prospective buyers. Other than that, there is no real reason for anyone to use that particular service AND Beckett's knows it. I really lost all repect for Beckett's when they hatched that plan.

Yeah, sure, as always, it's buyer beware. It's also yet another industry eyesore stemming from greed and adding to an ever declining market.

Exactly!!! You can't tell me that the people at Beckett didn't know what would happen from the start...They had to. They knew the significance of the number 10, and they found a way to get people to give them money in exchange for a 10 on sub-par cards that otherwise probably would've never been submitted. They played off of the deceptive nature of the hobby and decided to cash in on it.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I can't say for sure Beckett was the first to define the grading scale, but it's the first time I've ever seen it in print. So, if they defined the grading scale, years before PSA (or any other TPG) shouldn't they have the right to change it? Absolutley! It's THEIRS! I just don't see how the OP can say Beckett "inflated numerical grades" when obviously PSA did it first by going from a 5 point scale to a 10 point scale, and then from a 10 point scale to a 19 point scale.

What's wrong with taking a 5 point scale and expanding on it? There's always variances within each grade, some cards that are borderline up or down.. The 10 point scale is perfectly fine...The 19 however, I will agree is pushing it.. PSA's half grades, are really quarter grades in the overall scheme of things..That to me, might be a little too much. But then again Beckett, I believe was the one to initiate half grades..

Now as far as BCCG is concerned. You can't go around having a 5 point scale that runs from 5-10... Why not just have it run from 95-100?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

What's wrong with taking a 5 point scale and expanding on it?

Absolutley nothing wrong with it, but you missed my point. My point is that Beckett invented the scale, so why gripe about it when they want to change it? Nobody griped when PSA expanded it to a 10 point scale.

Originally Posted by novakjr

Now as far as BCCG is concerned. You can't go around having a 5 point scale that runs from 5-10... Why not just have it run from 95-100?

Why can't you have a scale that runs from 5-10? Why does it have to start with 1? Why did George Lucas start the Star Wars series with Episode IV? Because it's HIS movie. He can do whatever he wants. Likewise, it is Beckett's grading scale and they can do whatever they want.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Absolutley nothing wrong with it, but you missed my point. My point is that Beckett invented the scale, so why gripe about it when they want to change it? Nobody griped when PSA expanded it to a 10 point scale.



Why can't you have a scale that runs from 5-10? Why does it have to start with 1? Why did George Lucas start the Star Wars series with Episode IV? Because it's HIS movie. He can do whatever he wants. Likewise, it is Beckett's grading scale and they can do whatever they want.

Bad analogy. Lucas didn't start with Episode IV. Through a series of events and a few decades, it eventually became what is know as Episode IV, but originally, it was what it was. Numbers on any scale start at 1(or 0, depending on your view), that's just how it is. Using the number 5, the uninformed can easily be led to believe that it's at least better than 4 possible other grades...And using the number ten on a scale that ends at 10, one should be led to believe that it's the best possible, when we all know that isn't the case with BCCG. Compared to a standard 10 point scale, BCCG managed to skip number a 5 point scale that encompasses random grades between 1 and 8(on that 10 pt. scale) and numbers them from 5-10... The numbers are a clear intent to deceive. If it were just the grades I'd be fine with it, but the obvious bad math is not only retarded but shady as hell.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

BaThe numbers are a clear intent to deceive. If it were just the grades I'd be fine with it, but the obvious bad math is not only retarded but shady as hell.

I can't believe some of the ridiculous stuff I read on these boards.



David, who exactly are they trying to deceive? The person that submited the card? Their grading scale is posted on their website. Anybody submitting a card to them should know their system.

[frankbmd]

This thread is a BCCG 4!!

[RobertGT]

Here is the point of my original post:

Buyer pays $1,500 for a BCCC 10 Jordan RC. Check out the corners and edges. It's an 8. He should have paid $700.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-87-flee...item53eadcbeed

Here we have someone paying $420 for a VG Nolan Ryan rookie worth $185:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-C...item19cc2f90f6

And here we another buyer paying $420 for a BCCG 8 Gretzky rookie that's a 5 and worth $170:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-80-TOPP...item3f129b9323

I could pull up hundreds of examples like this happening every day on Ebay, so I wouldn't say it's a small problem. There are still plenty of novice collectors out there who only look at the numerical grade or have no clue what the Beckett grading scale is all about. And they are dropping big money. It's the little "don't ask, don't tell" secret among some sellers - and almost every one will have a title like "1975 Topps Joe Blow BGS BCCG 8" in the auction listing as a way to 1) capture search traffic and 2) fool the novice collector.

Should these buyers know better? Of course, and at the end of the day it is on them. I'm simply trying to help people understand what's going on and how they are being taken advantage of. I'm all for everyone making a buck where they can, but let's be honest, this is preying on beginners (or the stupid - whatever you prefer).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

There are still plenty of novice collectors out there who only look at the numerical grade or have no clue what the Beckett grading scale is all about.

Are you really telling me that they buyers are only looking at the number on the flip, but not looking at the description of the grade which is like 2 millimeters below the number? I just don't buy that. I think they're just stupid.

I keep seeing these phrases like "intent to deceive," "shady as hell" or "preying on begineers" to describe Beckett's business practices. The submitter of the card is getting exactly what they are paying for so I just don't see any of that. They're offering a service which is clearly defined on their website.

It's real simple. If one doesn't like BCCG's system, don't use them.

[RobertGT]

[QUOTE=vintagetoppsguy;966240]Are you really telling me that they buyers are only looking at the number on the flip, but not looking at the description of the grade which is like 2 millimeters below the number? I just don't buy that. I think they're just stupid.

Yes, I am telling you the number 8 or 10 or 7 is the only thing they are looking at and they don't understand how to interpret the language. How else do you explain someone paying $75 for a Joe Montana RC with centering like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120814396149

That's a $35 card. And yes, they may be stupid. Or are they just NOVICES who do not know any better? Not everyone is as advanced in the realm of card collecting as the people on these boards. Best, Rob

[vintagetoppsguy]

Bob,

I gave my fiancee an engagement ring right before Christmas. I didn't just go to the closest jewelry store to my house and blindly pick one at random. I did a lot of research and homework before buying the diamond because I didn't know anything about them. My point is that any buyer (yes, even bb card buyers) should do their homework before making a purchase they know nothing about.

Go to Google and type the words "BCCG grading." Here is the first thing you will see: "BCCG-graded cards (Beckett Collectors Club Grading) are completely separate and vastly different from the premium BGS- or BVG-graded cards." If any novice spent only 1 minute (60 seconds) to research BCCG, that would tell them all they need to know.

If you want to save these morons from themselves, then that is fine. I admire you for that, but as I and others have said, at the end of the day the responsibility is on THEM, not BCCG.

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

[B]
I keep seeing these phrases like "intent to deceive," "shady as hell" or "preying on begineers" to describe Beckett's business practices. The submitter of the card is getting exactly what they are paying for so I just don't see any of that. They're offering a service which is clearly defined on their website.

I don't believe Beckett is being dishonest, but I do believe in some of the above examples, the people selling their product are trying to "deceive".

Beckett can offer any service they choose and the consumer can accept it or decline it, but IMO it's a joke.

[Leon]

First of all the top Beckett (grader) guys are advertisers and pretty good personal friends of mine. We all go out to lunch fairly frequently. That being said I have spoken with them at length about their product BCCG. But to start out with, Alan Hagar "invented" the 10 point grading scale, so we can get that bit of trivia out of the way. Secondly, BCCG is in existence mainly for mass merchants that need(ed) a cheaper product to sell in their venues, especially on TV. It has been around for quite some time and it is a part of their business model that they do good with. In this day and age grading companies would be stupid to not do things to increase their profits. I think the only thing they would change is the numbering system, if they had it to do over. Otherwise, the product is a good one for them regardless of what we think. I also don't think it's dishonest or deceitful whatsoever. There's my half cent on it....

[novakjr]

They found a way to put the number 10 on something that deserves and 8 at best. As I said before, I'm fine with the grades they're assigning. And that's really all that ultimately matters. But the number system is f'ed.. They're intentionally catering to people that just wanna see a 10 on their cards. How many times have we all seen BCCG cards listed as BGS 10 or simply Beckett 10 on the bay? Many sellers have the intent to deceive with these, and ultimately the fault lies with the uninformed buyers. But without this service, sellers wouldn't have this outlet for deception. If there wasn't the intent for corruption of the product, they would simply assign a grade and slab it, without the deceptive numbering.. Basically, I can agree that BCCG isn't out to deceive people, but they intentionally sold a product with the full knowledge that it would be corrupted. And honestly, the corruptible nature of these slabs is a huge selling point.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Pat, just the opposite is true. Nobody has added more confustion to the marketplace than PSA. Go look at the very first issue of Beckett. It came out years before PSA was ever in business. In that magazine, there is a 5 point grading scale with a definition for each grade - Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent and Mint.

Notice you don't see Poor, VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM-MT, etc. There were only 5 grades and the system worked. Then came PSA and they told us we've been doing it wrong and that there were 10 grades. BULL$HIT!

Sorry, but PSA didn't invent VG/EX, EX/MT, NM, NM/MT.

Those were around long before the TPA's.

Beckett never fit those grades in their "Price Guides", because the font would be too small, and the price research would be too daunting, the publication landscape being what it was in those days.

Dealers used them all the time.

I will also add, back in those earlier days and being a weekend warrior doing shows all the time...........I never once used the term MINT, to describe a card.

I'd use NM or even NM/MT, but there was always some sort of bug in my head that made me tell myself a true MINT piece of cardboard coming out of a pack of gum, was inherently impossible.

Maybe I was just being silly, I don't know.