Pennant collectors

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Why didn't the seller just offer the underbidder a second chance?

Perhaps he did, and it was declined. I almost always pass on the "second chance offers". It is a flaw in ebay's sytem. You should not have to pay your max bid, if the top bid is withdrawn. You should only pay the next increment above bidder #3. The second chance thing is generally a rip-off.

I bet that more than half of the "second chance offers" are actually declined.

[perezfan]

Bottom line... these pennants were 100% authentic and legit. But the various flaws were not properly disclosed (especially for such high-end pieces).

Could be one of three reasons...

1. The seller didn't know "squat" about vintage pennants (and what pennant collectors would look for in terms of condition).

2. Seller had an intent to deceive, and thus realize a higher price.

3. A combination of points 1 and 2. This is my guess.

[thetahat]

Mark, it was probably more #1 than #2. For example, the picture not accurately representing the fading was likely a matter of lighting when the pictures were taken. Also you can't see how thin/worn it is in the corner unless you hold it to the light; it is still whole but it is very fragile. I guess the troubling part was the re-posting with the exact same description - no mention of these additional flaws - and then replying to someone that the buyer never paid for the item. That's just a flat out untruth.

Greg

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Bottom line... these pennants were 100% authentic and legit.

Do you think these were issued by a commercial manufacturer at the time of the world series' named on the pennants? If so, what's the evidence for that?

[Hankphenom]

So the original winner saved himself $1,200 the second time around on the same pennant. Can someone renege on his bid and then bid again when the item is relisted? I think not, so what's going on here? Actually, the seller would have done much better to offer a second chance to any of the four highest bidders the first time, all of whom bid at least $200 higher than the relisting closed for.
Everybody still think these pennants and their handling has been on the up and up? And I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions above.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=330670384973

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-Brookly...item4cfcf20873

[perezfan]

These things never do as well the second time around. Especially when the second occurance happens right after the first. As to exact date that these were issued, we may never know. The style, materials, felt and printing are all commensurate with known examples of the 1920s era.

This Brooklyn pennant was exposed and returned for being in far worse condition than originally portrayed by the seller. I bid on it the first time around, but stayed far away the second time (after Greg described its real condition). I would take the word of a collector vs. an ebay seller any day. Especially a seller that doesn't specialize in sports collectibles. He either failed to disclose the flaws due to not knowing what collectors look for, or had an intent to deceive. Perhaps a little of both...

It looks like Greg got it again, but for a price commensurate with its actual condition. A decent buy, the second time around... even in rough shape. I'm pretty sure that Greg will come on here to confirm his thoughts/strategy.

[Hankphenom]

There was no reneging here, the original buyer returned it due to condition issues. I had forgotten his post to that effect, and apologize for jumping to my conclusions and involving that buyer in my misimpressions. I still find much of the activity surrounding these pennants puzzling, and I am yet to be convinced they are truly vintage to the events depicted.
Hank Thomas

[lefty147]

The bidder did not renege on the the first auction. It was paid for and just returned to the seller as not described properly as in the post earlier. I guess if the seller didn't offer a second chance offer to the under bidders and re-lists it than whatever happens happens. If they didn't block the original winner from bidding how can they stop them from winning again ? I would imagine the seller is probably not very happy but it was out there for everyone to bid on-- again. Although I have no evidence, I agree with Mark the they are authentic and not homemade. This particular 1920 Dodger one is not the the first to surface. Mike

[thetahat]

Hi everybody ... yes, I can certainly prove that I bought it and returned it. I have proved it to another poster already, who has been kind enough to back me up. The seller only grants returns if item not as described, and she granted it right away, so that essentially backs me up.

The additional flaws were not devastating but it did significantly reduce its value ... not to a value of $0, but perhaps something in the neighborhood of $800-900 which is what one sold for awhile back in a Hunt Auction. It wasn't worth what I originally bid, due to condition flaws that were not described and pictures that were not representative. This is why I returned it. By the way, you can find this pennant in a Hunt Auction search. This pennant and that one have different flaws that probably balance out. Based on the description, this one should have been better, but it really isn't. (This one has perfect tip and original tassels but significantly more fading to the front and thinning of the body of the felt; doesn't display as nicely; graphic harder to see.) Still, all things considered, a decent pennant albeit not a holy grail, and so when I saw it posted again, obviously, I kept me eye on it. I found it interesting that the additional flaws were not mentioned. My max bid was less than half of what it was before. And I won.

I would restate my opinion that these are very old and unique pennants. Was this one printed immediately after the '20 season? Who knows. I did notice in Mike Egner's guide that there is a Senators pennant that is of the same type. It is a 1933-dated pennant (can't see it clearly in the book but it reminded me that I've seen it before) reading CHAMPIONS 1933 along the wide end. Absolutely convinced that the Browns/Cardinals pennants of the late 30s/early 40s are made from the same maker. I have these. No sewn-on strip at wide end, same metal grommets attaching tassels, and underneath the grommets are little clover designs. Maybe this is a very old commemorative series ... I could imagine that perhaps in 1939 something was done to commemorate 100 years. Just a wild guess.

Anyway, Hank, Mark, Mike ... thanks. I'll keep you posted.

[Hankphenom]

Maybe I'm just hypersensitive these days to fraud and scams in the hobby, which drive me nuts, and thought I had found one where none existed. I love pennants, you all obviously do, too, so let's assume these are of some substantial vintage and therefore quite interesting, and enjoy them for whatever they are.

[Tigerden]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Perhaps he did, and it was declined. I almost always pass on the "second chance offers". It is a flaw in ebay's sytem. You should not have to pay your max bid, if the top bid is withdrawn. You should only pay the next increment above bidder #3. The second chance thing is generally a rip-off.

I bet that more than half of the "second chance offers" are actually declined.

+1. I have never accepted the second chance offer for this very reason.