Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted,

There are (2) Piedmont Wagners that I know of both I think most would agree are trimmed or hand cut although one does reside in it’s wonderful PSA 8 holder. This card (PSA 8) is also the cornerstone of the grading industry yet the sheet mate Plank gets the AUTH years later too funny but I’m getting off point here LOL.

My point is taking Sovereign out of the mix, even taking Hindu out of the mix and focusing solely on Piedmont the ATC’s anchor brand as you say. Then answer this…..
Why can I get all the original 150 subjects with Piedmont 150 (not to mention Sovereign & Hindu) non hand cut such as the (2) lonely sole Wagners? Same goes for Plank 150’s of which there are (3) lonely hand cut cards one missingcolor too boot.





If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also.

John

1......Again, you agree with me regarding the PIEDMONT Wagner and Plank cards were "sheet-mates". We are making progress.

And yes, it is quite paradoxical that the Gretzky Wagner was graded as a PSA 8 card in the 1990's. While, in recent years, the Charlie Conlon Plank was graded as
an AUTHENTIC card by PSA. Although both these cards originated from the same source.

2......First, make no mistake, in the big picture....T206's with PIEDMONT backs outnumber T206's with all the SWEET CAPORAL backs by a factor of approx. 4 to 1.
This factor takes into account all cards of these two major brands that were tallied in two independent T206 surveys (18,000+ randomly sampled cards). You can
sample 100,000 - T206's and this ratio will not change that much.

With respect to the Wagner & Plank cards, it is obvious to anyone that the only brand of these two subjects that got into cigarette packs is the SWEET CAPORAL
brand. Why their PIEDMONT counterparts never got into cigarette packs remains a mystery, given the predominance of the PIEDMONT cards.

Now, consider this....if Wagner & Plank were NOT in this first press run; but, were printed subsequent to it (circa Summer/Fall of 1909) these two guys would also
have HINDU and SOVEREIGN backs....as the other 10 subjects in this initial press run have.

Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner
to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set.

That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.


TED Z

[Runscott]

Ted - quit arguing with John and send me the Plank info I asked for

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

One last time I do not agree with you that Wagner and Plank were on a sheet together for the first 150 production run of cards. I have explained that very clear above.

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

http://t206resource.com/Sporting%20Life%20Ads.html
Check out this site you might learn something...kidding...but here are the ads for the other folks to see.

When they were added, why they were pulled, how they were pulled is anyone’s guess. But it’s safe to say if they were in the first production run if so I’d have them in my collection today with diff backs and they wouldn’t cost me or anyone else six figures plus.

“Furthermore, thanks for posting that 5-card strip with Wagner on it. It was a pre-production piece custom made, (supposedly) for the purpose of swaying Wagner to permit ATC to include his image in the T206 set. That being so, this strip supports my contention that the Wagner card was indeed printed very early in the game and was in the original 12 cards.”

Pure speculation and fantasy. It proves nothing. I produce mocks all the time for pre-production of goods they have very little to do with the true initial production runs and many mocks and molds aren’t brought into production until way later in the production or marketing process. Sure they are thought out ahead of time but that doesn’t mean they make the first cut.

Ted much of these things you present and argue as fact are just wild ideas with very little substance to back them. In fact if anything there are more holes in your ideas than solid direction and insight. It’s ok to have theories we all have some but very few of us argue and present them as fact. The only fact here is unless a sheet or notes lands in our laps we will never truly know.

Unrelated Note: Do I think that Conlon’s Plank came from off the same strip from the back room trimming yes I think it is very likely. BTW this is not your theory or insight either Ted about the McNall Wagner trim job this story has been passed around the hobby forever. As far as the Conlon Plank the plausible sheet mate you found about that when the card went of in REA. You’re not posting anything new for me to agree with you on so there’s no progress to be made.

John

P.S. Where’s the beef…or should I say where’s the Magie?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

The Sporting news ads for these cards listed three major brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal & Sovereign as the first place for folks to go buy them when they announced the 150 series of these cards. If Wagner & Plank were in the very first sheet runs of these cards we would have them with all three brands and they wouldn’t be the rarity they are today.

Realizing I am probably just continuing to amuse myself....

John, early advertising could have included Sovereign, even if Sovereign wasn't printed until after Sweet Caporal and Piedmont. And certainly, if there were suspected issues with printing Wagner and Plank, ATC would likely have limited their printing (as they obviously did), and one way of doing that would have been to only print them on SOME of the Piedmont and Sweet Caporal runs, and NONE of the Sovereign runs.

There is no reason that Ted's line of reasoning should be considered invalid simply because there aren't Sovereign-backed examples.

okay, ignore me and carry on with your 2-way discussion...

[wonkaticket]

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott, it really boils down to this....for me, and I left Sov and SC out of the mix for the question below and went right to Piedmont.

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

You can't say Wagner & Plank were one of the first 12 printed or whatever then say that Piedmont was the major pride and joy brand and then have only a few handcut examples of Plank and Wagner with Piedmont.

If these cards were in the very first printing we would have many more them and they would show up more with all 3 first brands Sweet Cap as well.

Besides who sends customers to go buy smokes in 3 diff brands to get images of baseball players. I know my company doesn't advertise and send customers to dead ends makes no sense to run an ad to sell goods that can't be had.

John

John, I'm reading your post very carefully, and I just don't get your logic.

Regarding advertising, while your company may have a great grasp on it, many don't - besides, advertising something in advance when it isn't yet available is not an anomaly. A multitude of events might have occurred to delay the printing of Sovereigns. Sure, the plan might have been that Sovereigns were 'THE' cigarette for the first run of T206s, but maybe there was an issue that caused that to not pan out...ink issue, design issue, anything could have caused a delay.

Regarding the short-printing of the Wagner and Plank, I don't get why they couldn't be in the first 150, but only a few sheets were printed. Also, no reason why they had to be hand-cut. Your logic might point to the more likely scenario, but given that we don't have any clear-cut answers, we can't really throw out any possibilities.

[Abravefan11]

A few things:

Wagner, Plank, Carwford (Throwing), Lundgren (Chicago) and Jennings (Portrait) were not included at the beginning of the 150 Series. These subjects are all absent from initial print runs that included the Sovereign 150 backs. Only the original 150 Subjects were printed at this time.

Besides just the back data two collections that were assembled during the time the 150 Series was being distributed support this information. The first was the collage that was auctioned recently. It included all of the original 150 Subjects with the exception of Kling, but the five noted subjects were not present. Steve C. did a nice write up explaining it in post #7 of this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145675

The second was a collection that was shared with me after the collage thread that included all 150 original subjects as well as Lundgren and Jennings. But no Plank, Wagner or Crawford. These were assembled similarly to the collage that was auctioned and hadn't been removed from where they had been since being collected. They really are a great snapshot of the set at a given moment in time.

Of the initial twelve proposed to be the first cards printed in the T206 set in the OP the above address Wagner and Plank. The ten remaining on this list were not printed or produced any differently than the other 140 of the original 150 Subjects during the 150 Series. One of the last 150 Series printings was brown Hindu and all 10 of these subjects were included in that back run. The only thing that sets these cards apart from the other 140 is that they were discontinued when print group 1 began being printed with 350 Series backs.

[wonkaticket]

Scott,

Tim says exactly what I’ve been saying perhaps better. It’s all about timing and availability.

Look at the timeline that Ted is saying.

If those 12 players above were first to be printed with any of the three brands Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or Sovereign you would see more of Wagner & Plank with potentially all three brands but at the very least more of them with Sweet Caporal. They wouldn’t be missing and so absent.

Generally your first production is one of your bigger productions as it’s your launch, then subsequent productions could be bigger or smaller depending demand and sell thru. Since we can narrow down Plank and Wagner to only factory dist cards with the Sweet Caporal brand let’s focus on that for now.

If they did run as Ted says Plank and Wagner in the first 12 then for whatever reason Wagner was pulled effecting Plank how did it not affect the other 10 above with Sweet Caporal to some degree as well? The fact is it didn’t those other 12 are even found with the other brands.

If Plank was affected by the pull of Wagner and there was a cease & deist etc. from Plank to the ATC how come he shows up in the 350 series? I have even done some numbers of my own since mid 1999 about 50 individual Planks have come to sale or been publicly offered of which only about 12 or so have been 150 series cards. Showing roughly at glance that perhaps the 150’s are scarcer of Plank which has been the idea with many collectors for some time. This would suggest IMO that Plank was added towards the tail end of the 150 runs and carried over into the 350 before going away for whatever reason. If Plank was run in the spring of 1909 as Ted says then not pulled till 1910 that’s one long legal battle to have your card pulled or be affected by Wagner your sheet mate.

None of us are going to have the exact answer but saying Wagner & Plank were among the first 12 cards ever printed and looking at their numbers today compared with other 150 series cards just doesn’t add up IMO.

In regards to advertising in advance yes that does happen Scott but not so much with consumables maybe with the Wii or new iPhone but on household cleaners and smokes…not as much IMO.

In the end I wish Ted was right then we all could afford to get a nice Wagner & Plank as they would have printed quite a few of them in that very first flick of the switch at the factory before yanking them for whatever historical reason.

John

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

“If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also. Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?”

John

TELL US ALL......how do you know how many PIEDMONT versions of these two subjects were actually printed....NOT SHIPPED....just PRINTED ? ?

The truth is NO ONE KNOWS !


In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here.
When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner &
Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.

Batches of the ten 150-Only cards were shipped to PIEDMONT Factory #25 (VA) and were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in areas South of New York
and New England.

That includes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, so you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand why ALC was not going to ship PIEDMONT Wagner & Plank cards to
the Richmond Factory.

Now, the question is.....why were SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 Wagner & Plank cards shipped to Richmond to possibly be marketed in the Pennsylvania area ?

My guess on that is a few sneaked out of ALC. A meaningful test of this would be a survey of how many Wagner & Plank cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 vs
SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here. When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner & Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.

Batches of the ten 150-Only cards were shipped to PIEDMONT Factory #25 (VA) and were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in areas South of New York and New England.

That includes Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, so you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to understand why ALC was not going to ship PIEDMONT Wagner & Plank cards to the Richmond Factory.

Now, the question is.....why were SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 Wagner & Plank cards shipped to Richmond to possibly be marketed in the Pennsylvania area ?

My guess on that is a few sneaked out of ALC. A meaningful test of this would be a survey of how many Wagner & Plank cards are SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #25 vs SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 ?

TED Z

Ted - With all due respect, none of that is true.

[Runscott]

John - thanks for responding to my post. I think it's good to get some others involved, as right now it's just more of the old alignment of you and Tim vs Ted. We aren't getting anywhere with that.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

[B]The truth is NO ONE KNOWS !
In the Spring of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started cranking out several press runs of PIEDMONT cards of Wagner & Plank and the ten 150-Only cards shown here.When both these guys informed ATC that they did want to be associated with Tobacco cards, ATC immediately relayed this information to ALC. ALC clipped off Wagner &
Plank from their sheets of PIEDMONT's.TED Z

Ted you’re fantasy’s are just too much for me I presented some good questions/evidence here has Tim. All you have are misc dates you pulled out your thoughts that Plank was giving the ATC cease & desist letters and your pulled from thin air these are the first 12 players ever printed and you have the nerve to say I don’t know or have evidence.

Read your above statement Ted. In 1909 the ATC started cranking out several press runs of Wagner & Plank really? And you know this how? Plank said he didn’t want his image with tobacco and notified the ATC. Again you know this how? The ATC immediately clipped off Wagner & Plank from Piedmont. Once again you know this how?

YOU don’t know this either. The above is pure speculation or fantasy until you have hard evidence.

Yeah Plank was so against his image that the ATC “immediately” pulled his Piedmont card from the original 12 and a few Sweet Cap 150’s slipped out. The ATC seemed to be so worried about the so called litigation from Plank that you theorize about so much that ATC let some 350’s of Plank slip out months to almost a year later as well.

I don’t know for fact how many Piedmont Wagners or Planks were printed never claimed too. Or if they were ever printed in fact I say I doubt they were ever printed for production. Hence my disagreement with you and your thoughts. Ted YOU also have no idea if they ever even made it to production for distribution with the Piedmont brand but it doesn’t stop you from typing it as fact.

Seeing as we only have 2 Wagners and 3 Planks known to date with Piedmont 150 backs all which are hand cut or missing color or something. Seems like a very logical thought they never did make it into distribution as factory finished cards. We draw the same conclusion on Brown Old Mill and there are more examples of Brown Old Mill than Piedmont 150’s of Plank and Wagner…so why do we toss that logic here because you say so?

Ted have at it for the rest of the thread. I’m finished trying to share information with you or even question your ideas. It’s so painfully clear all you want is pats on the back and to be told how smart you are. There is no real quest for you to figure out this set. Your main goal is to convince everyone that you’re right and that all things T206 in regards of knowledge have some ties to you in some shape or form.

Ted if anyone needs evidence at this point it’s you for the record. I’m not the one with a laundry list of fantasy theories. I’m not the person with a history of tall tales and faked scans of cards that don’t exist. I’m not the one with stories of cards I don’t own. I’m not the one who when challenged to produce cards of question has excuses of “opps just sold him” or ends up posting fake scans. You are a real enigma Ted I have never met someone so hell bent on being taken as a serious scholar who limelight’s with fish stories and tall tales. You really make me laugh sometimes even if some of the stuff isn’t so funny.

John