POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

While this analogy seems sound on first glance, there is one sight difference between diamonds and autographs (I think) :

With a diamond, (I assume) there is a scientific way to determine if it is real, or fake. If my assumption is correct, the authenticator is dealing in facts.

With an autograph, we are dealing with opinions of authenticity, not facts. We can determine if the items involved in the autograph (paper, ink, pen style, angle of writing, pressures, etc) fit the usual known attributes, but we can not determine with absolute certainty whether (as an example) Walter Johnson signed his name to an item, and that he didn't have Joe Jackson sign for him.

Or am I missing something?
Doug

[drc]

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

I would certainly hope they would .

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, your argument I only agree with when "buying" an item. Of course you don't need TPA's to buy an item if you know what you are doing. 99% of the items I buy are without TPA's or any type of certification whatsoever. I typically buy them with no guarantee, no COA, and also no clue who I am dealing with. I buy the autograph sole on the autograph itself. I usually don't even both listening to their provenance unless it sounds like an interesting story.

My argument is from a dealers point of view. When dealing with items that are worth over 1,000 dollars, I believe it is in the dealers best interest to use a major TPA. I want to prove to my buyers that there is nothing to hide. Not to mention that every major auction house (outside a few like lelands) makes it mandatory to have it. And to sell them on ebay it is highly recommended as well. If you take selling vintage autographs serious on ebay, you should use a top TPA. It is not mandatory like the major auction houses, but if one of your items is questioned, they flag your account if you don't have TPA. And if you get flagged 3 times, they suspend or cancel your account. Why would a dealer want to deal with that and take that risk? When they can just use the proper TPA and everybody is happy. Ebay is happy, the buyers are happy, and the dealer is happy that everybody is satisfied with their product.

And lastly, Most of these transactions are done through paypal. If people buy autographed items "without" TPA, many times they send them away to be authenticated after buying. If they come back as "no good" from the TPA, paypal allows them to return the item anyways within 45 days. So if the dealer has the proper TPA already, that is one less thing to worry about.

None of this is the fault of the TPA's. Rather, the auction houses, ebay & paypal have decided to use them as their leading authority. If people don't like that, they should really take it up with the auction houses, ebay & paypal.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Richard, your argument I only agree with when "buying" an item. Of course you don't need TPA's to buy an item if you know what you are doing. 99% of the items I buy are without TPA's or any type of certification whatsoever. I typically buy them with no guarantee, no COA, and also no clue who I am dealing with. I buy the autograph sole on the autograph itself. I usually don't even both listening to their provenance unless it sounds like an interesting story.

My argument is from a dealers point of view. When dealing with items that are worth over 1,000 dollars, I believe it is in the dealers best interest to use a major TPA. I want to prove to my buyers that there is nothing to hide. Not to mention that every major auction house (outside a few like lelands) makes it mandatory to have it. And to sell them on ebay it is highly recommended as well. If you take selling vintage autographs serious on ebay, you should use a top TPA. It is not mandatory like the major auction houses, but if one of your items is questioned, they flag your account if you don't have TPA. And if you get flagged 3 times, they suspend or cancel your account. Why would a dealer want to deal with that and take that risk? When they can just use the proper TPA and everybody is happy. Ebay is happy, the buyers are happy, and the dealer is happy that everybody is satisfied with their product.

And lastly, Most of these transactions are done through paypal. If people buy autographed items "without" TPA, many times they send them away to be authenticated after buying. If they come back as "no good" from the TPA, paypal allows them to return the item anyways within 45 days. So if the dealer has the proper TPA already, that is one less thing to worry about.

None of this is the fault of the TPA's. Rather, the auction houses, ebay & paypal have decided to use them as their leading authority. If people don't like that, they should really take it up with the auction houses, ebay & paypal.

Casey - points well taken but also some disagreed with and a couple of TPA stories.
It is not mandatory for the consignor to consign an item with a TPA cert,the auction house is responsible for the TPA auction cert (don't get me started on auction certs and that scam).
I have many customers who have been buying from me for many, many years.
They don't bother spending the money, even on high ticket items, on TPA.
I had a $15 Burgess Meredith (the actor) autograph returned once that I sold on ebay. It came from one of the best in person collections I ever bought. The buyer admitted to me he knew it was good but he was a dealer and he could not resell it without TPA.
I had two rejections of Babe Ruth in person autographs from PSA. One was then sent by my customer, to Lelands, (I would take their authentication over any TPA) who immediately thanked him for the consignment, and sold it. The other one came from the same collection and the dealer I sold it to would not return it to me because he too knew it was good despite having it rejected by PSA. He sent it to them for the reasons you bring out in your post (marketing) but knew it was good and kept it, despite their rejection.
The next few stories to come out from Halls of Shame are going to be eye popping and will dissuade many who are on the fence about TPA's.

[drc]

How about this working theory. PSA and JSA are 85 percent correct (example percentage, don't take the number too seriously), which means a PSA letter says there's a 85% chance the item is authentic. If potential buyers say a LOA on eBay as saying there was an 85% chance, and not 100% guarantee, the autograph is authentic, they'd say "That LOA gives good odds, but I should look into thing further to bridge the gap." Looking into it further may include getting other opinions, educating themselves, looking at who is the seller and perhaps even spend accordingly less money. They will also realize that if they go strictly by LOAs, they will be buying fakes from time to time, because 85% isn't 100%. The significance will sink in further when they realize the TPA's aren't 100% accurate and don't give refunds for the autographs.

[Caseyatbat]

I think what you are looking for is dealer that guarantees his items 100%. Which is what I mentioned somewhere previously in this thread. That is exactly how I offer my items for sale. First I issue my own COA which guarantees the autograph authentic for life or your money back. And then I also provide a major TPA full letter of authenticity with it as well. So the buyers can have the best of both worlds. A buyer can't really ask for more than that. There isn't anymore to give.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

How about this working theory. PSA and JSA are 85 percent correct (example percentage, don't take the number too seriously), which means a PSA letter says there's a 85% chance the item is authentic. If potential buyers say a LOA on eBay as saying there was an 85% chance, and not 100% guarantee, the autograph is authentic, they'd say "That LOA gives good odds, but I should look into thing further to bridge the gap." Looking into it further may include getting other opinions, educating themselves, looking at who is the seller and perhaps even spend accordingly less money. They will also realize that if they go strictly by LOAs, they will be buying fakes from time to time, because 85% isn't 100%. The significance will sink in further when they realize the TPA's aren't 100% accurate and don't give refunds for the autographs.

+1