POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[David W]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But I would expect a whole lot more than a considered opinion from someone who makes his living solely by making these opinions. If your doctor said it was his considered opinion you needed heart surgery, but wasn't absolutely sure, would that work for most people?

If a TPA is authenticating a 1927 Yankee ball, I want him to be 99.99% sure he is right, and I want him to stand by that opinion. Otherwise, his services are pretty much worthless.

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

[HRBAKER]

I would feel less comfortable buying an item with a PSA/DNA or JSA cert than from any of the gentlemen that Richard mentioned. What you are really referring to Casey is that the TPA COA makes the item more liquid in today's hobby that's all.

And again these authenticators have a sliding scale for their expertise based on the value of the item - that implies no expertise? They have the best of both worlds IMO, reap the benefits from implied expertise w/o any responsibility.

I agree with Barry, if I were making a living in this hobby and did not possess the personal expertise to operate w/o TPAs as the ones mentioned before I wouldn't touch an autograph.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff, yes that is what I was saying. It makes the items more liquid especially in the eyes of a dealer. But also I still believe third party authentication is a necessity. I believe what Richard said earlier was true about who he felt were reliable dealers. But in the end, they are dealers. Buyers wants authentication from a "third party" that does not actually own that particular item and trying to sell it. And they want it from whoever the biggest and best name is. Right now, we all know who those 2 companies are.

The best place to buy higher end autographs are from reliable dealers who specialize in this particular area that provide both their own COA guarantee and still use the top TPA's as well. There is really no reason why even the most knowledgeable dealer in the industry should not use a TPA as well as give their own guarantee. Their investment into the TPA always come back when the item is sold. Most Dealers even get a pretty substantial discount with TPA's which makes it even more worthwhile to use them.

[HRBAKER]

Yes but Casey they are involved in the transaction to some extent even though they do not buy and sell autographs per se. If they charge a sliding scale based on the secondary value of the item then to me they are participating in the market.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

I have probably been around longer than you Casey because the situation you describe happens to me only once or twice a year and it is usually from a new customer. I tell them I don't need TPA because I feel I know what I am doing.
In my ebay ads I state this:

If you see autographs on ebay with 3rd party authentication then you are paying for that authentication, whether you want it or not. The sellers are forcing you to pay for and accept the opinion of those companies. They will add the cost of authentication to the price of the item.
Established, reputable dealers who know their material don't need to use third party authenticators.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, again I completely agree with you. Established reputable dealers don't need to use TPA's. But why not use them as well and yes build it into the price? I am only talking about higher end autographs. If buying a Babe Ruth single signed ball, we also have to take account signature removals, enhancements, etc. TPA's use sophisticated machinery for this. These dealers you are speaking of I highly doubt are using this type of machinery to make sure an item is single signed or not somehow professionally enhanced.

So when dealing with higher end autographs, I want both the reliable dealers guarantee such as the ones you are speaking of, and also I want a second opinion from the top TPA available. That is how I offer to sell my items as well. I am confident enough to offer my own guarantee and also offer a top TPA as well just to satisfy whichever customers wants it. All it does is open the window to more potential customers.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by David W

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

The problem I have is, like you said David, it's the biggest & the best against little old, lowly Mantle collectors like me trying to get a refund. When I tried to discuss this Mickey Mantle autograph on another website (I did not purchase this, but it sold for $100.00 plus) that Todd Mueller sold at his on-line auction site last April.


I KNEW it was an easy to spot Mantle forgery, but he went on for 3 pages about "Providence" and how he knew Mantle & did signings with him, blah blah blah.

It doesn't change the fact that the item is a forgery. No one was going to make him refund that poor sap who bought this mess. So I don't put too much stock into guaranteeing in this business anyway. Can't even get the self proclaimed biggest dealer in America to shoot straight with Mickey Freaking Mantle...So I certainly see your point David.

I do wish Todd luck with his new endeavors. At least the guy is still trying to do something positive for the industry, though I hold out little or no hope that Moralless fakes will be everywhere on his new site that look just like this beauty below.

and yes, these third party guys and FDE's alike should hold up to a standard for their work. The fact that no one ever gets a refund for their lousy service is beyond me?