POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[thecatspajamas]

Are we talking refund of the authentication fees, or the sale price of the item?

[drc]

The owner of the item is responsible for refund. If the owner wants to have an afterwords dispute with the TPA that's a second issue.

You are paying PSA to give opinion, not take over financial responsibilities for your sales, not as your insurance company. If people want PSA to start being 100% financially responsible for a $20,000 item, start assuming the authentication fee will be substantially higher. Perhaps $20,000.

This is not to suggest I believe PSA bears no financial responsibilities for shoddy, irresponsible work. A seller might indeed be able to after a refund take PSA to court and win some monies.

But, when in doubt, the legal owner of an item is responsible for the refund.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by drc

The owner of the item is responsible for refund. If the owner wants to have an afterwords dispute with the TPA that's a second issue.

You are paying PSA to give opinion, not take over financial responsibilities for your sales, not as your insurance company. If people want PSA to start being 100% financially responsible for a $20,000 item, start assuming the authentication fee will be substantially higher. Perhaps $20,000.

This is not to suggest I believe PSA bears no financial responsibilities for shoddy, irresponsible work. A seller might indeed be able to after a refund take PSA to court and win some monies.

But, when in doubt, the legal owner of an item is responsible for the refund.

My thoughts exactly, which is why I asked for clarification as to what the poll question was suggesting. I would be very surprised if any TPA leaves themselves open to any financial responsibility above and beyond the actual authentication fees.

As drc said, that gets more into "authentication insurance" territory, and I would definitely expect to not only pay much more for the authentication of a high-end auto, but also have to jump through a much more rigorous set of hoops to prove a "bad authentication" claim.

That kind of "limitation of liability" to the cost of the services provided is pretty common in the professional world unless the one providing the services is required to be insured/bonded, in which case you will pay more for their services. There just ain't no such thing as free insurance

Amended to add: While I wouldn't be surprised to see "authentication insurance" as a TPA offering someday, I don't think the rate would be 100% of the item's fair market value.

[mr2686]

Who's responsible for the refund? The government of course! Heck, they bail out everyone else

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Who's responsible for the refund? The government of course! Heck, they bail out everyone else

Well, in a way you're correct. Because if the dealer takes it back for a full refund, and is unable to get re-imbursed himself, it's possible that he would write off the money he had into it as a loss on his taxes..

[drc]

Another way to view it is, if the TPA makes the refund, that would mean the seller keeps the $10,000 for a Babe Ruth ball returned for it's a forgery. How often do any of us get to keep all the money when something is returned for being a fake or missgraded? Try never. Now that would be a screwy system.

[David Atkatz]

You might as well ask "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Both the auction houses and the TPAs have legally indemnified themselves. Read the small print in the auction catalogs and the TPAs contracts. According to them--and who has the money to test whether it can hold up in court?--neither of them will take financial responsibility.

[Mr. Zipper]

The dealer actually sold and profited from the item. Why would the TPA issue the refund?

The notion that "the dealer sold it based upon the TPAs opinion " absolves the dealer from any responsibility.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

The dealer actually sold and profited from the item. Why would the TPA issue the refund?

The notion that "the dealer sold it based upon the TPAs opinion " absolves the dealer from any responsibility.

I do agree with you Steve, but it seemed based on other threads that others thought otherwise.
Thought it would be an interesting poll.

[steve B]

I voted for the dealer because that's the simplest answer in what could be a complex situation. If I sold something that wasn't right and I could be shown that it wasn't right I'd refund just to make things easy for the customer.

I think though that ultimate responsibility depends a lot on the item and the timeline. If I bought it with a good cert and it's later proven bad I'd want a refund from whoever I bought it from. I might discuss it with the TPA because I might not have bought it if not for their mistake. (Assuming of course that I'd done my own research to begin with and saw no obvious problems like an item made after the signers death )

But if I bought it without a cert and sent it in myself then I would be on the hook for the whole thing. I might tell the TPA about the item so they hopefully could use it as an opportunity for further training if it's employees or as a bit of extra knowledge for themselves.

But what about an item that's circulated in a hobby for years and passed through several dealers and collectors and may even have multiple certs issued years apart but new information has discredited it? It's happened in stamps, and I'd bet it's happened in every other hobby too.
I'm not sure what should happen then. Ultimately it should work it's way back along the line of people who have owned it. But that's not at all realistic.

Steve B

[gnaz01]

I voted for the dealer, and if the item is not what the TPA states it to be, the dealer needs to take that up with the TPA or whomever he/she purchased it from.

[tinkereversandme]

I would like to the authenticator be held responsible because if this happen, about ten of them would close up shop.

Larry

[RichardSimon]

Larry -you are tempting me to switch my vote when you put it that way.

[drc]

Irrelevant to TPAs, I think it's good for the hobby for sellers to feel they are financially responsible for the authenticity of the things they sale. We're in trouble when dealers feel authenticity is someone else's concern.

Duly note that in this thread I haven't considered graded cards, and all those tagged plastic entombments. I know many sellers from here don't allow returns on graded cards and say 'take your grade dispute up with the grader.' One can of worms at a time.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Are we talking refund of the authentication fees, or the sale price of the item?

Talking about the sale price of the item.