T206 Speaker NO RED in Goodwin

wonkaticket · #1 01-13-2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

Dan - You sold it to me. Are you saying you ripped me off?

Dan was joking I'm sure. Next time insert a smiley Dan not everyone here knows you’re a sarcastic mean ol’ drunk of a collector.

(See you can say anything with a smiley behind it)

As for the card your Dahlen I see no real issues or red lights. The area like Dan said doesn't seem to be affected you can still see the faint area of the "B" in most of these there is always a faint trace but some have none. In summary I think the Dahlen is fine at a glance and the seller is a top notch guy that I would vouch for any day.

As for the masterminds and forgeries I think folks like Iggy watch too much CSI and Oceans Eleven and end up giving these guys way too much credit or talking a bit to SciFi in theory. The facts are Chan was nothing more than d-bag in a his little house who ordered a rubber stamp from stamps.com and took advantage of something so simple….collector passion. Every collector suffers from this they want something rare for a deal and when it’s found or in hand they want to believe and logic goes out the window. What was brilliant about Chan and most of these fakes are not the complexity of the forgeries but the simplicity and the fact that it is so easily missed in hobby filled with skeptics.

In the end Chan had about as much in the way of master forger skills as my next door neighbor’s kid. She also plays with stamps just from her would have had to believe the Dora overprint T206. Heck even all the stuff Kevin S use to show on here was very Showtime at the Apollo IMO.

As for the re-back guys like Moser once again most of those are easy to spot however if they have made it into graded cases well now that makes it harder. If it were me and I was looking at a super tough back star card or impossible combo in a holder I would ask to crack inspect and then re-holder at the grading company prior to me putting out cash.

Cheers,

John

iggyman · #2 01-13-2012, 01:44 PM

John,

You are right, I gave Chan way too much credit, my T206 museum statement was meant more as a bad attempt at humor. Nothing more, you can take your shots at me if you like, I've always been a big admirer of your wit. I'm not implying that card doctors are making the color red disappear, but the reality is that the color red on T206 cards can fade. Thus, if that is a true statement, it makes all these cards irrelevant, no matter how many cool orange background cards Ted Z might show. Here is a classic example of a red background card that was probably exposed to light.

t206 cobb orange.jpg

Perhaps it came out of the factory that way, but in reality the color red faded except in the upper right corner. Now, did cards come out of the factory with orange background or missing red.............of course! Can the run of the mill T206 collector tell the difference between a "factory" created or "faded" missing red??? Nope, and I'm sure most DNA certified T206 experts couldn't either!

Lovely Day...

wonkaticket · #3 01-13-2012, 02:09 PM

Iggy, I wasn't taking shots at you just saying I thought folks gave a lot of these guys way to much credit in terms of doctored cards. I lumped you in sorry if I offended you.

I also agree many can be exposure vs. at time of production but the Dahlen looked ok to me no real super red flags.

As for the color red fading due to exposure I think that having a color like red only fade and green, yellow, blue etc. not also be affected would be tough to explain so I don’t follow you there. But I'm happy to learn and would like to if you can explain how just red is effected by exposure.

In the end I just don’t see some super lab with a mad scientist with a special brew of chemicals knocking out certain colors and then selling commons and beaters for $300 vs. $20. Seems like a lot of work and a lot of expertise for such a little return…Kevin S tried to show that he could do it never saw one card he worked that looked legit. I also think if it was so easy you would see these everywhere sort of like trimmed cards and reprints no shortage of those.

Now re-backing and overprints….well…that’s another story money to be had there for sure if you’re a dirty clown.

Cheers,

John

P.S. That Cobb still has quite a bit of red in his cheeks FWIW, I think many of these are nothing more than print oddities. For gods sake you should see what my laser printer and ink jets at the office do when they get low on one color.

So I think a lot of stuff left these factories wacky I know it did. I used to toss back these cards in deals saying they were ugly back in the day ughhh. It really just depends if you want to pay extra for these or not IMO.

Mikehealer · #4 01-13-2012, 02:14 PM

Iggy, in the Cobb you posted how come the rest of the card isn't faded? I don't really understand how just the background is faded and the rest of the card looks "normal". I'm just curious.
Thanks
Mike

mkdltn · #5 01-13-2012, 03:06 PM

Some colors are more lightfast or fugitive than others. Today art materials carry a rating for how well they stand up to prolonged exposure to light. Lithographers back then were very mindfull of how lightfast or fugitive an ink was but exceptions were made.

iggyman · #6 01-13-2012, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Iggy, in the Cobb you posted how come the rest of the card isn't faded? I don't really understand how just the background is faded and the rest of the card looks "normal". I'm just curious.
Thanks
Mike

Mike,

I'm just a recreational weekend softball player, so I'm way out of my league here and won't be able to intelligently answer your question. But at the end of the day, this is what I know to be true; the red color pigment used on T206 cards is more sensitive to ultraviolet light then the other colors. Thus, the other colors will eventually fade, but red will go first and at a much faster rate. That is the bottom line.

Lovely Day...

Runscott · #7 01-13-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

In the end I just don�t see some super lab with a mad scientist with a special brew of chemicals knocking out certain colors and then selling commons and beaters for $300 vs. $20. Seems like a lot of work and a lot of expertise for such a little return�Kevin S tried to show that he could do it never saw one card he worked that looked legit. I also think if it was so easy you would see these everywhere sort of like trimmed cards and reprints no shortage of those.

John, that doesn't stop people from working on such projects - for example, there are plenty of hackers who don't make a dime, but just do it for fun. I could see someone trying to create red-less Speaker cards with chemicals (if it's even possible), just for grins and to stump people like us. Now that you've said Kevin couldn't succeed at doing it, you might have encouraged one of these 'mad scientists' to get out his chemistry kit again.

atx840 · #8 01-13-2012, 03:01 PM

The Cobb was auctioned as faded.

"The Hall of Famer�s face retains its customarily vigorous hues but � apparently through the use of photo-corner mounts and in consideration of certain shades fading at differing rates � long-ago display measures resulted in a �new� background hue (a taste of the original is still evident at the top-right corner)"

fkw · #9 01-13-2012, 03:03 PM

not all of them are faded (maybe a small % are), the fade would affect more than only the background or only the red uniform ink

this was in a scrapbook for much of its life, it didnt fade. The normal red only shows on the very bottom (low ink in lithograph process is my understanding)

iggyman · #10 01-13-2012, 07:57 PM

John,

No offense taken, actually I consider it a badge of honor that you actually referenced me in a post. I took out my handy loupe and started looking at my T206 Red Cobb and the bold red that you see in the background is on his lips, by his ears, and a small smidgen by his eyes, but his cheeks are a different shade of red. Thus, the pigmentation is different which would then affect the fading. If the red used on his cheeks were on the background, then the background color would not have faded so badly. I've attached a picture; notice the red on his lips. eyes, and ears are the same as in the background, yet the red on his cheeks is a different shade. I sure wish one of the printer guys would chime-in!

T206 Red Cobb2.jpg

Red will almost ALWAYS fade first, it happened on the Star-Spangled Banner and it happens on T206 cards. Here is a short article about fading: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/charters/fading.html

Lovely Day...

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