T206 Speaker NO RED in Goodwin

[iggyman]

Since a can of worms has been opened and it's kind of slow here at the corporate level. The fact that the Dahlen is missing the color red (or faded), is most certainly due to exposure to light/vapors/chemicals as opposed to something done at the factory. Since it cannot be determined with 100% accuracy whether this statement is actually true, it unfortunately renders the value of the card at the level of a normal beater T206 Dahlen (without any sort of a premium added).

On the other hand, the T206 Speaker "partial missing red" looks cool and probably deserves a small premium (since, in my mind it could conceivably happen at the factory level). However, the missing red could also have been caused by exposure to light/vapors/chemicals/ or even doctors. The fact that at least three cards are known to exist, doesn't add that much credibility, since all three cards could have certainly been together in someones shed from the Roosevelt through Reagan years or worst yet, had been together in Pat Chan's museum.

Lovely Day...

[danmckee]

To whoever is telling Jason that Dahlen has been altered, please feel free to write me directly. I got a group of T206s that had about 6 cards missing the red and I actually got 2 Dahlen's in there. Hence I sold the extra to Jason. Now some self proclaimed expert is telling him it was altered??

Email me directly expert and I will send you the scans of the others.

For what I paid for the group, if someone altered them, they didn't reap any benefits from the alterations.

Dan Mckee

P.S. and for those of you who know me, you would know I was joking when I stated he was ripped off and to return it immediately, fully knowing I sold it to him.

This board is amazing!

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by danmckee

P.S. and for those of you who know me, you would know I was joking when I stated he was ripped off and to return it immediately, fully knowing I sold it to him.

Dan - I didn't realize you were joking; sorry that it set off a firestorm. This Dahlen is one of my favorite cards and I get upset when people claim it's fake. And for the record, our transaction was pleasant and I have no problems with it.

Jason

[Jaybird]

I agree about red fading first. I know this is anecdotal but whenever I've found an old beer can or other piece of packaging out in the woods while hiking, I can always read the lettering but the color is gone. Pabst beer cans, etc. So obviously different colors fade at different rates.

Talk to a tattoo artist and they will tell you about pigments as well and which colors fade the most (red) and are subject to the suns effects. Black and blue and purple are some of the more steadfast colors.


edited to add: Just read the article linked by Iggyman and it basically says the same thing. Living out in Southern California, you can see it in a red car of the same age as a blue car as well. Much more faded. again, anecdotal but backed by science.

[wonkaticket]

Iggy,

Iggy I think you and I agree on this but you’re missing my point and you think I’m disagreeing with yours. I’ve seen the banner project in person the blue is faded as well not just the red. My point was to isolate just “red” overtime isn’t going to happen easily red may be faster and first to go but others will show loss too. I agree the loss may not be as dramatic but it’s there if you look.

I do not doubt or disagree with your point that colors on paper or other surfaces will fade when exposed to sunlight over time even artificial light 100% true. But other colors present will also fade and show some pigment loss as well not just red while others stay crisp and vibrant. My initial comments were in regards to the Dahlen above which is very vibrant based upon the scan minus the B at least to my 36 year old eyes.

Red is no doubt a color that is highly sensitive to light hence why so little of Egypt’s art is found outside of sealed tombs due to the Egyptian love of the pigment red ochre as well as the pigments themselves. A lot of this loss has many factors that will also help speed up or slow down the process…sorry if this is boring if you can’t tell I grew up in an art family…LOL

• Exposure
• Storage where was it stored how was it stored etc.
• Environment where was it found, climate etc.
• Substrate applied too i.e. wood, paper type, fabric type, metal type
• Substrate chemical makeup where chemicals used in the base material prior to production that would cause rapid decay
• Materials used i.e. chemical, organic dyes & pigments
• Finishing materials lacquers etc.
• Early preservation attempts did someone early on in a pieces life attempt to save and do more harm than good etc.
• Many more……

I will even help Iggy illustrate what he’s talking about. A great example of what Iggy is talking about in regards to direct exposure can be seen here.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=41515

These cards were no doubt stored in direct sunlight for quite some time. I have no doubt we are going to see quite a few of these hit the market very soon (depending on winner) as missing colors or scraps so guys take note. All sorts of oddities in this caused by the environment, exposure, glue used, paper its mounted too etc.

For me a rule of thumb I follow on these cards is I never pay huge premiums to begin with; the card has to be as vibrant next to a regular version of itself minus the missing color pass etc. Meaning if you’re selling a no red and the blue/blacks/browns or facial color is about 2 shades lighter than another regular card I tend to pass as it could just be sunlight and exposure at play.

Back to the Huggins & Scott lot. Funny thing to note and where Iggy may be onto something neat regarding T206 is notice the E95 Cicotte red as the devil yet the Wagner is missing his stripe in his hat but also note the fully washed out hands, bat & lighter blue background etc i.e. sunlight. So you cant chalk up all missing color Wagners to sunlight exposure not just saying that because I own one either.

I would also like to add this does not take away from true print defects and they are out there. So not everything is and can be chalked up to exposure to light but some can.

But a neat question here is why did the T206’s and few others red fade away and the E95 stay relatively bright? Lots of reasons for this and interesting to take note I think. Talk amongst yourselves.

This stuff is fun these are the kind of discussions and debates that make the hobby great and lead to learning neat new stuff.

Cheers,

John

P.S. This does now prove that all Red Sun T211 and T210 Red Border cards and any T206 with red in it are ticking time bombs that will be worthless in months due to red going away I suggest you sell them to Iggy and I for .25 on the dollar.

[steve B]

Maybe the E95s used cochineal pigmented inks while T206 used a synthetic pigment or an inferior natural colorant?

Finished reading a whole book about cochineal and history of red pigments/dyes a few months ago. Fascinating stuff.

Steve B

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by iggyman

Since a can of worms has been opened and it's kind of slow here at the corporate level. The fact that the Dahlen is missing the color red (or faded), is most certainly due to exposure to light/vapors/chemicals as opposed to something done at the factory. Since it cannot be determined with 100% accuracy whether this statement is actually true, it unfortunately renders the value of the card at the level of a normal beater T206 Dahlen (without any sort of a premium added).

On the other hand, the T206 Speaker "partial missing red" looks cool and probably deserves a small premium (since, in my mind it could conceivably happen at the factory level). However, the missing red could also have been caused by exposure to light/vapors/chemicals/ or even doctors. The fact that at least three cards are known to exist, doesn't add that much credibility, since all three cards could have certainly been together in someones shed from the Roosevelt through Reagan years or worst yet, had been together in Pat Chan's museum.

Lovely Day...

If the Dahlen was altered, the spot where the B should have been would be affected. Hence you can still see the dot patteren applied there. No alteration has been done to this card and it was acquired in a group where no premium was assessed and it wasn't from a baseball card guy.

But I appreciate your expert advice though wrong in this case.

Thanks.

[Runscott]

removed.

Not aimed at you Dan, but the hypocrisy is wearing me out.