T206 sov 460 super print question

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

So, for your own edification, check-out the POP
reports and compare any of the 46 - SOVEREIGN 460 subjects with the 6 super-prints with the 460 back.

TED Z

Using the pop reports to determine scarcity is difficult because much of the information is incomplete. PSA does not differentiate between series so it’s impossible to tell how many of the cards on their report have 350 or 460 series backs. This renders PSA’s pop reports with regard to the super prints useless. SGC does differentiate between backs but for many years they did not separate poses but instead counted them all into one nondescript listing. For example in the Hal Chase report it lists the following for Sovereign 460:

Nondescript = 19
Trophy = 4
Blue Port = 2
Black Cap = 1

How many of the 19 were Trophy, Blue Port or Black Cap poses? We can't know.

Fortunately there are three super print subjects that are only possible with one pose with a 460 Series back so we know the nondescript are the same as the identified pose. For example Evers:

Nondescript = 6
w/ Bat = 1
Total Evers w/ Bat = 7

The total SGC pop numbers for the three super prints we can determine the total for are:

Cobb = 3
Evers = 7
Mathewson = 5

For a comparison these are the pop numbers for some other 460 Only subjects.

Abbaticchio = 5
Ball = 7
Bergen = 7
Bescher = 7
Devore = 5
Herzog = 6
Howell = 6
Meyers = 7
Oldering = 6
Overall = 6
Schaeffer = 7
Stovall = 7

All of these subjects on the pop report are equal to or between Evers and Mathewson. So if we’re going to use the pop report to determine scarcity I believe the only conclusion would be that the twelve common cards I listed would be equal in scarcity to the super prints of Evers and Mathewson.

Cobb only has a pop report of 3 but Murray also has a pop report of 3. Given the number of entries it’s expected for some subjects to fall just below or just above the median.

Now as I stated before there is a group that I believe were printed much more than the others and the pop report is a good indicator of that. Some of them are the following:

Crandall = 18
Duffy = 20
Ford = 30
Gandil = 21
Geyer = 16
Sheckard = 16
Tannehill = 32
Wheat = 15

In conclusion some cards within the Sovereign 460 back set do appear to have been printed more than the super prints but I have not seen any evidence to show that the super prints were printed less than all the other cards in the group.

[tedzan]

Tim

The SGC pop report data I have is as follows......

Super-Print .... SOV 460 .... SOV 350

Chance .............. 0 .............. 5

Chase (port) ....... 2 .............. 6

Chase (dk cap) .... 1 .............. 2

Cobb ................. 1 ............... 8

Evers ................. 1 .............. 2

Mathewson ......... 0 .............. 4

460-Only cards range from 4 - 40 examples


I got this data off the SGC website today. Where are you getting your numbers from, they don't jive ?

Furthermore, as we know pop reports can be misleading. That is why I have more confidence in a long-term T206 survey of 15,000 cards,
which I constantly refer to in my research.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tim

The SGC pop report data I have is as follows......

Super-Print .... SOV 460 .... SOV 350

Cobb ................. 1 ............... 8

Evers ................. 1 .............. 2

Mathewson ......... 0 .............. 4

I got this data off the SGC website today. Where are you getting your numbers from, they don't jive ?

TED Z

These are fresh screen shots from SGC's pop reports just taken for Evers, Cobb and Mathewson. The other three can not be accurately totaled.

[tedzan]

The row without the exact pose identified is not a valid pop report for a SOVEREIGN 460 card.

The bottom rows of the Cobb and Evers are the accurate pop report data. And, these agree with the data I gleaned from SGC's website.

And, the Matty data is unknown.....it does not pertain to a SOVEREIGN 460 Matty.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

The 1911 in each row is how SGC identifies the 460 Series.

No other Evers, Mathewson or Cobb pose is possible with a Sovereign 460 series back, so all of the unidentified Sovereign have to be the super prints.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

The 1911 in each row is how SGC identifies the 460 Series.

No other Evers, Mathewson or Cobb pose is possible with a Sovereign 460 series back, so all of the unidentified Sovereign have to be the super prints.

Tim

This is not so, the unidentified Sovereign data can be anything ? ?

It is my understanding (from the SGC guys), that if you do NOT type in the EXACT pose information, you cannot expect to get the EXACT POP REPORT data
that you are looking for.

Therefore, your data on "1911 Sovereign"....WITHOUT TYPING IN THE EXACT POSE does not necessarily provide you the accurate pop report that you desire.
Your graphic shows two contradictory rows of data.

I don't trust the data you have posted on the Cobb, Evers & Matty that does not provide the pose identification in the DESCRIPTION box.....notwithstanding,
that you took the short-cut by only typing in "1911".


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted - I'm confident that the numbers I presented are accurate and not misleading. Your inability and unwillingness to understand them do not make them any less factual but it does preclude this discussion from moving forward.