O/T Best Starting pitcher of all time.

[oldjudge]

While this thread is about the best starting pitcher ever, I thought I'd share this article from the Wall Street Journal about the man who might be the greatest pitcher ever:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...092034092.html

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

While this thread is about the best starting pitcher ever, I thought I'd share this article from the Wall Street Journal about the man who might be the greatest pitcher ever:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...092034092.html

Good article. There definitely is an argument that the Great Rivera (as Jon Miller calls him) is the best pitcher ever.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

While this thread is about the best starting pitcher ever, I thought I'd share this article from the Wall Street Journal about the man who might be the greatest pitcher ever:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...092034092.html

Jay,

Interesting article but it leaves out one critical pitching perspective aspect. You CANNOT compare a pitcher who NEVER has to throw more than 2 innings to a pitcher that has to go 6 - 9 innings. Starting pitchers simply cannot throw at 100% capacity every pitch of every inning. A relief pitcher is afforded the luxury of "blowing" on every pitch. True, Rivera's dominance as a relief pitcher has truely earned him #1 relief pitcher status, but you cannot compare a one inning pitcher to a hurler required to throw "at a minimum", 70 - 80% of a full game. Starters and relievers have to be placed in separate buckets, and it is impossible to compare the two.

FYI, this in no way diminishes what Rivera has accomplished with basically one pitch. He is a remarkable first ballot Hall of Famer who, in a relief pitching role, we may never see the likes of again!

Regards,
Joe T.

[Cy2009]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

While this thread is about the best starting pitcher ever, I thought I'd share this article from the Wall Street Journal about the man who might be the greatest pitcher ever:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...092034092.html

I am amazed, baffled and perplexed at how people rate Rivera as the greatest pitcher of all time. I don't doubt is greatness, but let's take a look at his greatness compared to others.

His job is to get THREE outs a game. Can you imagine Bob Gibson if he needed to get only three outs each time he pitched. He would drill the first guy in the back, then strike out the next three. Seriously, I would love to ask Gibson the question if he only had to close, and he did that excellently, that he would be considered the greatest pitcher of all-time. I think he would chuckle. One season, Gibson pitched 302 innings and had a 1.12 ERA! I know that you all know that stat but please read that again. Rivera has pitched more than 80 innings in only one season during is career. Now read that stat again.

Another point about a closer, especially Rivera. For a team to win a game, the team must score more runs than the other team. It becomes far more difficult when the team is behind and has to come up with runs to come from behind to win the game. How many times has Rivera helped his team come from behind to win a game? You can probably count this number on one hand.

Also, the point that Hank Thomas brought up is one that is so overlooked. Whitey Ford is considered on of the greatest pitchers of all time. But he never had to pitch against his Yankees, the dominant team by far of his time. Mariano Rivera never had to pitch against the dominant team of his time. The Yankees over the past 17 years are clearly the best team of this era, especially the hitters. Rivera never had to pitch against these guys. What would is stats be if he had to close against this group one out of 6 times?

And finally is a big deal to end the game 3 outs early? I don't minimize this, but saying that he is the greatest pitcher of all time is like saying that the guy who watched Michael Jordan for the last minute of 5 games is more valuable than the guy who watched him for the first 47 minutes of those games. Maybe this player did a great job at crunch time. But each basket counts no matter when it is scored. Likewise, each run counts no matter when it is scored.

Rivera is a great pitcher, but when he only averages 78 innings per year, this is not close to the best of all time. Let me quote you some other stats. Walter Johnson had a career record of 417-279 in 5914 innings. (Rivera pitched 1207 innings.) But of those 279 losses, Washington was shut out in 65 of those games. SIXTY-FIVE of is losses occurred because is team did not score a single run. Give him the Yankees hitting and there would never be a discussion of who the greatest pitcher of all time was.

So it baffles me when writers state that a pitcher who gets three outs each time he works is better than this?

Cy

[Irwin Fletcher]

If we are not focusing on longevity, it's Pedro, hands down. Everyone talks about Koufax's last five years as if they are untouchable, but Pedro was actually better than Koufax over a seven year stretch from 1997-2003; and Pedro was pitching in an era dominated by hitters, while Koufax pitched in an era dominated by pitchers.

Here are Pedro's stats from 1997-2003:
118-36, 2.20 ERA, 0.94 WHIP, 213 ERA+

Pedro in his prime was the best pitcher I have ever seen and I'm a NYY fan. If I had to win one game, I'd give the ball to Pedro, circa 1999-2000.

[sam majors]

I saw Koufax, Gibson and Maddux in person many times. They are the three best pitchers in my lifetime. I'm not much of a stat guy and can only go on what I witnessed. Of the three I believe Gibson was the best

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

While this thread is about the best starting pitcher ever, I thought I'd share this article from the Wall Street Journal about the man who might be the greatest pitcher ever:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...092034092.html

I think the fact that Rivera threw just 1-1/3 innings in a 5-game LDS series against the Tigers and had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of the series, pretty much puts to rest the idea that he - or any other reliever - is even in the discussion as "greatest pitcher ever".

Tabe

[ValKehl]

Had Walter Johnson been a closer instead of a starting pitcher, today we would be referring to Rivera as the second best closer ever!
Val

[Misunderestimated]

I think the polls closed and my vote would be for Walter Johnson (no big deal), followed by Lefty Grove or Cy Young

... The best season ever?
Well, even though the game was really different I'd go with Old Hoss in '84 (1884). He won 59 games in the regular season and the triple crown. He lost 12 with 441 Ks and an ERA of 1.38. He also "single-handedly" (his right, to be specific) carried Providence to the National League crown, pitching almost every game down the home stretch.

Then, in the earliest precursor to the World Series, he led the "Grays" over the New York Metropolitans winning all three games played with an ERA of 0.00. The "Mets" back then had another future HOFer, Tim Keefe, who Hoss beat in two of the games.

The pitching numbers back then are really hard to compare to anything . For example no relief pitching -- Radbourn led the league with 2 Saves. The Sabermetric numbers are equally out of whack; Radbourn's WAR was about 20.

But Radbourn didn't just win a lot -- a whole lot -- of games that season. He carried his team all the way and then dominated in the post-season like a combination of Johnson & Schilling in 2001...

[calvindog]

Only two pitchers in the history of baseball have ever won the pitching triple crown three times: Walter Johnson and Sandy Koufax. Let's compare Ron Guidry to Koufax again.

[Rob L]

Has to be The Big Train and The Big Unit.