O/T Best Starting pitcher of all time.

Brendan · #1 09-08-2011, 05:58 PM

For me, it's Cy Young hands down. I want the guy who is going to win games, not the guy with the flashy strikeout, shutout and ERA. Young has many more wins than Johnson and a better winning percentage. A great pitcher needs to win games even on a bad team.

slidekellyslide · #2 09-08-2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan

For me, it's Cy Young hands down. I want the guy who is going to win games, not the guy with the flashy strikeout, shutout and ERA. Young has many more wins than Johnson and a better winning percentage. A great pitcher needs to win games even on a bad team.

I disagree...a pitcher plays defense..he doesn't score runs. Nolan Ryan in 1987 led the league in ERA yet he still had 16 losses and only 8 wins. His team couldn't score runs...that's not Ryan's fault.

Brendan · #3 09-08-2011, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I disagree...a pitcher plays defense..he doesn't score runs. Nolan Ryan in 1987 led the league in ERA yet he still had 16 losses and only 8 wins. His team couldn't score runs...that's not Ryan's fault.

If your team doesn't score any runs, don't give up any runs. When you have a good lead, you're going to throw the ball over the plate. If you give up a couple runs, nobody cares. A great pitcher should be able to give up only one run if his team scores two. If his team scores ten, he can allow the other team to score a few. Please don't forget that pitchers did bat back then.

slidekellyslide · #4 09-08-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan

If your team doesn't score any runs, don't give up any runs. When you have a good lead, you're going to throw the ball over the plate. If you give up a couple runs, nobody cares. A great pitcher should be able to give up only one run if his team scores two. If his team scores ten, he can allow the other team to score a few. Please don't forget that pitchers did bat back then.

That doesn't make any sense to me...if you give up one run over 9 innings, but still lose 1-0 that doesn't qualify as a great pitching performance, but if you win the game 9-8 that qualifies??

In 1996 Roger Pavlik was 15-8 with a 5.18 ERA...do you believe that's a better season than Nolan Ryan's 1987 season?

ls7plus · #5 09-08-2011, 07:03 PM

With corrections for prevailing era conditions, a dead heat between Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove--check out Grove's neutralized stats at www.baseball-reference.com. Put him in the National League in 1966, playing at Dodger Statdium, and virtually every one of his seasons looks as good or better than Koufax circa 1965-1966. Remember, Lefty pitched when the entire league hit .280 plus, and a good number of the stadiums were of the bandbox variety.

Nice thread,

Larry

FrankWakefield · #6 09-08-2011, 08:12 PM

For Robert W... Casey wasn't the one holding Whitey back. Jim Turner did that. Casey picked the players and then asked Jim to give him a pitcher. Casey and Jim went back to Mudhen days before Jim ever reached the majors. Casey and Jim had been told by the owners to not let any of the pitchers get too many wins in a season, lest they try to use that as a reason to get more money during contract negotiation.

iwantitiwinit, you have me thinking that if it was just ONE game, and Mr. Gibson had fire in his eyes, he may well be my choice, too. But over a career, Walter Johnson is still tops for me.

Brendan · #7 09-08-2011, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

That doesn't make any sense to me...if you give up one run over 9 innings, but still lose 1-0 that doesn't qualify as a great pitching performance, but if you win the game 9-8 that qualifies??

In 1996 Roger Pavlik was 15-8 with a 5.18 ERA...do you believe that's a better season than Nolan Ryan's 1987 season?

It doesn't make sense that the only thing a pitcher needs to do is give up less runs than his team scores?

cfc1909 · #8 09-09-2011, 07:58 AM

Nichols had a 10 year span that in each season he won more than 20 games and 7 seasons he won more than 30 games. I believe he has more 30 win seasons than any other pitcher in the history of the game. 9 of the 10 years he won more than 25 games-I would think that is pretty dominant in any era

cliftons8 · #9 09-09-2011, 08:53 AM

I really like Matty, but voted for Johnson. If you listen or read The Glory of Their Times, all of those guys talk about Walter Johnson as the greatest. I know there has been 50 years since that book was written, but his numbers say alot.
For a single season Hoss Radbourn had "Fifty Nine in 84"

slidekellyslide · #10 09-09-2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan

It doesn't make sense that the only thing a pitcher needs to do is give up less runs than his team scores?

So in a game you need to win you'd start 1996 Roger Pavlik over 1987 Nolan Ryan? Wins are nice, but they do not even begin to tell the story of how effective a pitcher is.

Robextend · #11 09-09-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

So in a game you need to win you'd start 1996 Roger Pavlik over 1987 Nolan Ryan? Wins are nice, but they do not even begin to tell the story of how effective a pitcher is.

+1

Wins should just be a part of the equation; to ignore the other components isn't logical.

sycks22 · #12 09-14-2011, 07:30 AM

To those that said CY Young, he struck out a guy every 3rd inning, gave up the most hits / most losses. He's the Favre of baseball, some nice records, but when you throw a complete game every time out there you're bound to get some records. Don't get me wrong 511 wins is amazing, but over 300 losses is pretty bad.

martyogelvie · #13 09-14-2011, 08:32 AM

I'm a sucker for stats so I picked Cy..

the best I ever saw would be Tom Terrific.. and having never seen the pre war guys its hard to get a feel for them vs simply looking at the stat line.

I love it when the subject of unbreakable records comes up and folks overlook CYs 511 wins.. I simply point out that a pitcher could win 20 games for 20 years in a row and still be 100 wins shy of CY.. that is the MOST unbreakable record IMO of any record in sports...

Brendan · #14 09-14-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sycks22

To those that said CY Young, he struck out a guy every 3rd inning, gave up the most hits / most losses. He's the Favre of baseball, some nice records, but when you throw a complete game every time out there you're bound to get some records. Don't get me wrong 511 wins is amazing, but over 300 losses is pretty bad.

He had 511 wins. His winning percentage was actually very good. Compare his winning percentage to other greats and he's in the top bunch. The record he holds for the most losses gives him an impression that he had a low winning percentage. .618 is not low.

Giving up the most hits is just a novelty stat. Same thing with strikeouts. Because he pitched the most innings of any pitcher, he is going to have some of these records. If you want to go that route, he also has the record for games started, innings pitched, batters faced, complete games and earned runs. You can make an argument that ERA means something, but an out is an out whether it's a flyball at the wall or a strikeout. Also, three and a half strikeouts per game was not that low in those days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cy2009

Another point about a closer, especially Rivera. For a team to win a game, the team must score more runs than the other team. It becomes far more difficult when the team is behind and has to come up with runs to come from behind to win the game. How many times has Rivera helped his team come from behind to win a game?

Don't undermine his RBI!

packs · #15 09-14-2011, 04:27 PM

I've said it before, but I think you guys are being very shortsighted about Rivera. What he is able to do is incredible. You and I will never see a more dominant pitcher in our lifetimes. Rivera is a gamer. I wouldn't give the ball to any other pitcher in history in the ninth inning of game 7 of any World Series.

Rivera's post-season numbers:

8-1 with an 0.71 ERA in 139 IP with 42 saves, 86 hits allowed and only 21 walks.

I'm not saying Mariano is the best pitcher of all time. But I would agree that he is the most dominant pitcher ever to step onto the mound.

Hankphenom · #16 09-14-2011, 04:40 PM

This is an almost impossible task to determine by the stats, but why should we even try? First, who did the hitters from each generation name the most often? That should give you one pitcher from each generation, more or less. Then take what the hitters say about the pitchers they've seen pitch during their lifetime, especially the old-timers who stayed in the game a long time as managers, scouts, coaches, etc. That should boil it down to a select few. Then get out the numbers and start crunching them if you want. And I don't think you can compare relief pitchers to starters. As others have said, we have no idea what it would have been like for Walter Johnson or Bob Feller, for example to only have to get through one inning at a time. Then there's the element of criteria: are we talking about the pitcher with the nastiest stuff, or the most effective pitcher? All this is great fodder for discussion.
Hank Thomas

ls7plus · #17 09-21-2011, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I've said it before, but I think you guys are being very shortsighted about Rivera. What he is able to do is incredible. You and I will never see a more dominant pitcher in our lifetimes. Rivera is a gamer. I wouldn't give the ball to any other pitcher in history in the ninth inning of game 7 of any World Series.

Rivera's post-season numbers:

8-1 with an 0.71 ERA in 139 IP with 42 saves, 86 hits allowed and only 21 walks.

I'm not saying Mariano is the best pitcher of all time. But I would agree that he is the most dominant pitcher ever to step onto the mound.

With all due respect, gentlemen, Rivera's not even lined up in the starting blocks against guys like Grove, Johnson, Koufax, Martinez, Mathewson, Alexander and Spahn (13 20-win seasons?? Imagine having your staff ace every year for 17-18 years!!!). Sorry, Rivera's out of his element here, and simply a non-starter (pun intended!).

Makes for some good controversy, though, albeit quite short-lived!

Larry

Touch'EmAll · #18 09-22-2011, 10:16 PM

I heard about one pitcher who could top them all ... named Sidd Finch

Cy2009 · #19 09-14-2011, 04:30 PM

Here's another interesting stat concerning Walter Johnson vs. Mariano Rivera.

Mariano Rivera pitched in 1200 innings, total. Walter Johnson pitched 110 complete game shutouts. Plus Walter lost 26 complete games 1-0. That means that Walter pitched more complete game shutout innings plus 1-0 loss innings than Mariano pitched in his entire career (1224-1200).

Cy

Vintageclout · #20 09-14-2011, 10:46 AM

I typically break these type of questions into 2 categories: (1) Peak Value and (2) Overall 10+ year career. My peak value choice is easily Sandy Koufax who from 1963 - 1966 was the benchmark that all pitchers will forever be measured against. He was virtually un-hittable. (Peak value honorable mention candidates include Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddox, Grover Alexander, Walter Johnson and Mathewson).

Over a 10+ year career it would have to be Walter Johnson who remarkably won 417 games with a 2nd division ball club. Honorable mention goes to Christy Mathewson and Tom Seaver with Seaver Bill James' choice as the arguable premier post WWII pitcher.

View Poll Results: Best Starting pitcher of All time
Cy Young	18	8.70%
Christy Mathewson	28	13.53%
Walter Johnson	91	43.96%
Lefty Grove	9	4.35%
Warren Spahn	4	1.93%
Sandy Koufax	16	7.73%
Tom Seaver	6	2.90%
Someone else	35	16.91%
Voters: 207. You may not vote on this poll

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