Issues with a Heritage National Auction Item.

[Heritage Sports]

We have spoken with multiple championship ring experts in the hobby as well as a contact at Jostens regarding this ring. While the prevailing opinion does appear to match the basis of your argument that “Back in the 60's Jostens engraved "JOSTEN" and later on, in the 1970's started to engrave "JOSTENS,” a bit of research has located a number of rings dating from the 1940’s to the late 1960’s that are stamped “JOSTENS,” indicating a rather significant flaw in this opinion. This cannot be explained by anyone with whom we have discussed the matter. In fact, we have also located 1960’s championship rings from the same NFL team and year noted as stamped “JOSTENS” with both 10K and 14K gold. While the issue is being characterized by certain posters on this board as being black-and-white-definitive, it simply is not the case.

We stand by our copy as written and every statement is factually correct. This is Fuzzy Thurston’s ring. It was presented to him for his participation in the 1967 Super Bowl II. It is stamped “Jostens 10K.” It was confiscated by the IRS and consigned to Heritage to recoup back taxes. Here is a link to the full description should you wish to review it: http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7037&lotNo=80061

We are human and errors will rarely but inevitably occur when dealing with over 10,000 sports lots annually. The Joe Jackson photo that Dan Bretta posted about was pulled from auction and was never sold by Heritage, despite his statement to the contrary. Please feel free to check our nearly 60,000 lots in our completed auction archives to verify. We appreciate the feedback that we receive from knowledgeable hobbyists. We review the information that is provided and we sometimes update a lot when it is deemed as warranted or choose to leave the description as it is when we feel that it is accurate. Heritage Auctions is a service business and we have grown to be the world’s largest collectibles auctioneer over the past 35 years by building trust and providing quality service to the thirty collectible fields in which we work. This will be our last post on this thread but please feel free to email myself or any Heritage sports consignment director should you have any further questions about the Platinum Night event next week.

[calvindog]

Ugh. I'd hate to be the sucker who's buying this ring.

[packs]

On what other types of rings did you find the JOSTENS variable? This is a super bowl championship ring. I wouldn't compare its make up to just any ring carrying a JOSTENS stamp dating to the same time period.

[sports-rings]

Please share with me (this is my 2nd request) who your ring experts are. There are so few out there I would hope I know them.

In all the years I have collected rings, and the experts I have met, no one has ever mentioned that a team has issued some players 14K rings and others 10K. This is an amazing revelation and I would like to confirm this.

thank you,

[shelly]

This is addressed to Jonathan Scheier of Heritage Auctions.

This is in reference to the Superbowl II ring that you have up for auction.

Mr. Scheier, you have an authority and expert here on Net54 on sports rings in Mr. Michael Borkin. Heritage Auctions has some beautiful memorabilia up for auction right now valued in the millions. Your one auction for that Super Bowl II ring is going to make potential bidders possibly question the authenticity of your other items. Why not continue your investigation of that particular Super Bowl II ring, take down the auction and save it for your next auction if you discover that it is as you claim.

Mr. Michael Borkin has given you enough reason for you to have the question that Super Bowl II ring. Please don't allow one possible bad apple to infect your other beautiful auctions. I know many of your authenticators, I would suggest that this is not a fight you would win.


Shelly

[sports-rings]

Shelly,

thanks for your kind words. I am not really an expert when it comes to rings. they are my passion and I try to research and document every ring major ring that comes to auction.

I only know a couple of "Ring Experts" (maybe two or three). Scott Welkowsky knows more about ring than anyone I know, and I have a helpful source at Jostens. Scott was not contacted. There is TJ, who authenticates rings for PSA-DNA, but sadly, he knows less about rings and is so unfriendly myself and others stay away from him.

So I asked Jonathan who his ring experts were and I have not heard back from him.

The way they handled this issue all I can think is what a lousy way to tarnish a good reputation.

[gnaz01]

Michael,

Is that the same Scott Welkowsky that used to work at California Numismatics years ago?

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

We have spoken with multiple championship ring experts in the hobby as well as a contact at Jostens regarding this ring. While the prevailing opinion does appear to match the basis of your argument that “Back in the 60's Jostens engraved "JOSTEN" and later on, in the 1970's started to engrave "JOSTENS,” a bit of research has located a number of rings dating from the 1940’s to the late 1960’s that are stamped “JOSTENS,” indicating a rather significant flaw in this opinion. This cannot be explained by anyone with whom we have discussed the matter. In fact, we have also located 1960’s championship rings from the same NFL team and year noted as stamped “JOSTENS” with both 10K and 14K gold. While the issue is being characterized by certain posters on this board as being black-and-white-definitive, it simply is not the case.

We stand by our copy as written and every statement is factually correct. This is Fuzzy Thurston’s ring. It was presented to him for his participation in the 1967 Super Bowl II. It is stamped “Jostens 10K.” It was confiscated by the IRS and consigned to Heritage to recoup back taxes. Here is a link to the full description should you wish to review it: http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7037&lotNo=80061

We are human and errors will rarely but inevitably occur when dealing with over 10,000 sports lots annually. The Joe Jackson photo that Dan Bretta posted about was pulled from auction and was never sold by Heritage, despite his statement to the contrary. Please feel free to check our nearly 60,000 lots in our completed auction archives to verify. We appreciate the feedback that we receive from knowledgeable hobbyists. We review the information that is provided and we sometimes update a lot when it is deemed as warranted or choose to leave the description as it is when we feel that it is accurate. Heritage Auctions is a service business and we have grown to be the world’s largest collectibles auctioneer over the past 35 years by building trust and providing quality service to the thirty collectible fields in which we work. This will be our last post on this thread but please feel free to email myself or any Heritage sports consignment director should you have any further questions about the Platinum Night event next week.

Instead of pulling the piece, as some suggest, it seems to me there is a very obvious solution to this dilemma: post these findings. If you have located genuine rings that match yours, show us all where. If you have located early rings that says "JOSTENS," then show us where. Take away any 'trust' factor involved, and give every bit of data available, then let the educated public decide. Otherwise, you're asking us to believe your word when the argument against you is not only compelling, some might say it's damning.
Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[bobbyw8469]

Why risk it, for a seemingly small amount? I don't get it.

Wasn't the federal guberment the consignor???? Not like Heritage wanted to piss them off - however, the winning buyer took it on the chin on that one sounds like. What else is new?

[sports-rings]

I sent a link of this post to "an auction expert" (after all, they got their "ring experts" involved). The owner of a major auction house told me he was stunned by their reasoning and response.

Again, I ask, who are the ring experts that vouched for the ring being original? If a possible bidder is deciding on bidding on the item, wouldn't it make sense to name who your experts are? This is done all the time when auction houses use PSA or JSA.

Something does not seem right or add up.

[danc]

I don't understand why a multi-multi million dollar company (that goes well beyond sports) would risk their reputation on something like this?

On a side note that has nothing to do with this. I heard a long time ago about a valuable consignor who kept feeding an auction house. One day, one of the items he consigned got a lot of flack and the auction house wanted to pull the item. The consignor was outraged and noted that if this was done, he would never consign with them again. They let the item fly to appease the consignor.

DanC

[Matt]

Originally Posted by danc

I don't understand why a multi-multi million dollar company (that goes well beyond sports) would risk their reputation on something like this?

Perhaps they recognize they encounter this situation pretty frequently and if they respond to this one, then they may feel compelled to all the other similar situations as well.

[thecatspajamas]

Just caught the live webcast of the auction, and the auctioneer did make a statement about the ring to the effect of: "This was Fuzzy Thurston's ring. He lost the original ring given to him in 1967 and this was made for him in the 70's. But this was Fuzzy's ring, and he did wear it."

The situation was handled fairly in my opinion, and bidding advanced beyond the opening internet pre-bid, so assumedly the winner knew exactly what he was getting.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by danc

On a side note that has nothing to do with this. I heard a long time ago about a valuable consignor who kept feeding an auction house. One day, one of the items he consigned got a lot of flack and the auction house wanted to pull the item. The consignor was outraged and noted that if this was done, he would never consign with them again. They let the item fly to appease the consignor.

DanC

I am shocked, shocked to find out that an auction house would not do the right thing but would rather appease the consignor and keep the revenue stream alive.
Round up the usual suspects.