Eight Men Out

[Shoeless Moe]

.......and in, which pretty is common knowledge, was that Buck requested a seperate trial. The only one who did that. He also said he'd never rat on his friends.

However in requesting a seperate trial that speaks volumes, it means he wanted to seperate himself from the others. Why would he want to do that? Obviously he knew the others were guilty. If he knew they were innocent also he would not have done that. So by doing so, he basically is saying the others were dirty.

Not that that is a big surprise to those who have read on the subject. Buck also placed a bet on the Series. He bet with drawing a blank offhand but a member of the media or someone a pair of new shoes that the Sox would win the Series.

Another tell that Buck was not dirty. He did have knowledge though and that is what he was banned for, but that is way to stiff a punishment for not saying anything. As from reading several other books including the Ray Schalk story amongst others, Schalk knew something was up, as did manager Gleason as did Comiskey. But all remained quiet.

Its like today, most people feel the steriod users should not be in the Hall of Fame, but I'm sure their were non-users, Thome, Maddox, Smoltz, Jeter who knew their buddies were doing it, should they be banned like Buck was just because they to had knowledge and didn't speak up, seems kinda similar to me.

[Bugsy]

The difference between Buck and Schalk, Collins, Comiskey, Johnson, etc is that Buck attended meetings where details of throwing games were discussed and he did not report it. That is why Landis expelled him and not the others. Jackson actually has a better case than Buck does since he never attended any of the meetings.

[Shoeless Moe]

Bugsy, if all of your buddies were at ones house and it was brought up that they knew of an illegal way to make some money, it wouldn't hurt anyone or steal from the poor or anything like that, but they had a plan and u decided u wanted no part of it. Or a cash station spit out a crapload of money and they took it. Do u go straight to the police and rat your friends out?

[Bugsy]

I am not arguing that Weaver is innocent or guilty. If you look at my earlier post, I don't believe he did throw the Series. The fact is that he knew about it and had discussed it with other players that did. That is why Landis kicked him out (to set a precedent) and not the other "clean" Sox. There were actually a handful of others that were cleaner than Weaver that received the punishment. It was Landis drawing a line in the sand.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I am not arguing that Weaver is innocent or guilty. If you look at my earlier post, I don't believe he did throw the Series. The fact is that he knew about it and had discussed it with other players that did. That is why Landis kicked him out (to set a precedent) and not the other "clean" Sox. There were actually a handful of others that were cleaner than Weaver that received the punishment. It was Landis drawing a line in the sand.

No I agree with you on why Buck was banned, I just think it was too harsh. Granted Landis had to make a point, but I think his point was made when he banned the other guilty 7. Buck should have been reinstated. The decision by Landis was made after Buck did, or didn't do what he did. You can still set the precedent going forward that anyone with knowledge will be banned. Just too harsh in my opinion.

[Bugsy]

I think Jackson was even more innocent that Buck.

1) He didn't attend any fix meetings.
2) He asked to be benched before the first game. Would a guy in on a fix call attention to himself by asking out of the lineup?
3) His batting and fielding were flawless. Some argue he "let up" in the clutch which simply isn't true. If you examine every at bat, this carries no weight. His throw to the plate (that Cicotte cut off) is proof his fielding was on the level too.
4) He received money the evening after the last game and tried to return it the next day, but Comiskey wouldn't see him (trying to separate himself from his players) and sent Jackson home with the money. Went Grabiner went to visit Jackson in the winter to get him to sign for 1920, he again tried to return the money.
5) The signed testimony is a joke too. Commy's lawyer had an illiterate scrawl on a sheet of paper. He didn't confess to anything. He was pressured by a few suits to do what he was told.

As far as Landis' standard for expulsion is concerned, Joe passes the test, but since he was tied to the others in public opinion, Landis expelled him too. Honestly, I don't mind Joe being kicked out. I am not a Landis fan, but it served a greater good. Game fixing didn't end in 1920, but the game would have perished had nobody taken a hard line on it.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I think Jackson was even more innocent that Buck.

1) He didn't attend any fix meetings.
2) He asked to be benched before the first game. Would a guy in on a fix call attention to himself by asking out of the lineup?
3) His batting and fielding were flawless. Some argue he "let up" in the clutch which simply isn't true. If you examine every at bat, this carries no weight. His throw to the plate (that Cicotte cut off) is proof his fielding was on the level too.
4) He received money the evening after the last game and tried to return it the next day, but Comiskey wouldn't see him (trying to separate himself from his players) and sent Jackson home with the money. Went Grabiner went to visit Jackson in the winter to get him to sign for 1920, he again tried to return the money.
5) The signed testimony is a joke too. Commy's lawyer had an illiterate scrawl on a sheet of paper. He didn't confess to anything. He was pressured by a few suits to do what he was told.

As far as Landis' standard for expulsion is concerned, Joe passes the test, but since he was tied to the others in public opinion, Landis expelled him too. Honestly, I don't mind Joe being kicked out. I am not a Landis fan, but it served a greater good. Game fixing didn't end in 1920, but the game would have perished had nobody taken a hard line on it.

I'm going to bed, but could argue a few of these points. For one Jackson's hitting was not flawless. He went a combined 1 for 12 in games 1, 4, & 5. Buck hit .324 in the Series but had a lifetime .272 avg.

As to when he actually rec'd the money I think that's unclear, I would need to check my books unless u have a quote u could provide stating such.

And as for Joe's confession. Joe was much smarter then the movie portrayed. He wasn't a dope. He might have been back in '09 but after playing 10 or so years in the Bigs he knew a thing or 2. So to say he was duped into confessing is open for debate, but fact is he did at one point confess. I'm not saying he didn't play hard most or maybe even the whole series but I just think unfortunately he has more guilt then Buck, but there are degrees of guilt for all of them.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

The difference between Buck and Schalk, Collins, Comiskey, Johnson, etc is that Buck attended meetings where details of throwing games were discussed and he did not report it. That is why Landis expelled him and not the others. Jackson actually has a better case than Buck does since he never attended any of the meetings.

Jackson took money - there goes his case. Granted he felt guilty and tried to return/report it to Comiskey, but still he took money, that's worse then being at a meeting and deciding you didn't want in. Jackson doesn't need to be at a meeting, once he took the money he sealed his fate.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Jackson took money - there goes his case. Granted he felt guilty and tried to return/report it to Comiskey, but still he took money, that's worse then being at a meeting and deciding you didn't want in. Jackson doesn't need to be at a meeting, once he took the money he sealed his fate.

Williams gave Joe money after the last game of the Series because he said he had used Joe's name with the fixers. Joe took the proof to his club immediately the next day. Commy wouldn't see him, and Grabiner told Joe to take it home. Joe again tried bringing it up when Grabiner went to sign Joe over the winter and was told to keep it (and keep quiet about it). Joe did everything that is asked of a player (by the Landis standard).