Nicholls SC150 649 OP CONTROVERSY

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting question of burden of proof. Is the burden to show it does exist, or to show that it does not exist?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting question of burden of proof. Is the burden to show it does exist, or to show that it does not exist?

Peter - When it comes to putting cards on a list of "confirmed" examples and publishing those list to the hobby to be used as credible information the burden absolutely falls on proving the card does exist.

The lists I use have a tremendous amount of cards on them that are listed as "possible" but not confirmed.

It's difficult to say with any certainty that a front/back combo will not show up but it is possible, but great care should be take when making those claims and you should be open to the idea you could be proven wrong someday.

Again when claiming the card as "confirmed" as in this case, the burden of proof falls on proving it does exist.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Peter - When it comes to putting cards on a list of "confirmed" examples and publishing those list to the hobby to be used as credible information the burden absolutely falls on proving the card does exist.

The lists I use have a tremendous amount of cards on them that are listed as "possible" but not confirmed.

It's difficult to say with any certainty that a front/back combo will not show up but it is possible, but great care should be take when making those claims and you should be open to the idea you could be proven wrong someday.

Again when claiming the card as "confirmed" as in this case, the burden of proof falls on proving it does exist.

OK, but to continue the legal analogy, why isn't the confirmation on the 14,000 card survey and Ted's stating that he owned the card enough to meet his burden or, in legal terms, to shift the burden to the people claiming it does not exist?

[Abravefan11]

I don't know how to argue this question legally. All I know is I have compiled lists of thousands of inputs and I know how easy it is to make a mistake on one.

And time and time again collectors have claimed to own cards that defy front/back possibilities and when asked to produce the card it turns out to be a different back or they can't produce the card at all.

When there is enough evidence to warrant reasonable skepticism as in this case a tangible example of the card needs to be produced to confirm it.

Also I will add that Ted's other "Mission Accomplished" threads damage his credibility and cause further skepticism about his actually owning the card.

[wonkaticket]

Peter there is no Nicholls confirmed on the superset survey. The only known record of Nicholls was made by Scot R; he admitted that it could have been a mistake via wrong scan back front combo from eBay many years ago.

Ted went off this list of Scot's told everyone he had the card when asked to show it he said he just sold it (snap fingers here)...

Any other collector of worth told me they had this card I might buy the dream for a bit but still ask to see it. Fact is this is the Same Ted who pulled the AB 460 subset mission accomplished thread. When asked by dozens to show up..guess what that's right you just missed it...as the Church Lady would say..."Isn't that convenient."

Funniest thing about this whole mission accomplished subset for the Sweet Cap 649 is that when he won the Johnson card in B&L and posted he had this 35 card set not 34…when Jim asked him to bring them all not only was Nicholls missing but many others were as well. When Jim asked him how then are you finished the set forget the Nicholls tall tale for now…Ted said I’ve been keeping a list and I’ve owned all 35 over the years but sold many of them off.

LOL that’s like me coming on here and saying I just finished the T206 set and when asked where are the 520+ cards I state well I had one of each over the years.

Once again more tall tales not I’ can now confirm all these cards and here are the images so the list is…no it’s hey everybody I finished this set look at me and tell me how great I am.

John

[marcdelpercio]

It is really impossible to prove that a card does NOT exist. I could claim that I own several previously uncatalogued T206 cards and nobody could prove that I don't. Logically, it would seem that anybody (especially one who truly wishes to research and document this set) who did own such an elusive card would be very eager to display it frequently or at least verify its existence.

It would be the equivalent of a prominent biologist who claimed to have captured a Yeti, but then refused to show the rest of the scientific community any evidence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On the original thread, another collector stated that he too had put together a 35 card set (same number Ted identified including the card at issue).

#20 10-20-2008, 01:15 PM
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MISSION ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 150/fac 649 ovpt subset

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted
Thanks guys.

I'm curious, if anyone else out there has completed this short series of T206's ?

TED Z





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#21 10-20-2008, 07:26 PM
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Administrator Join Date: Mar 2009
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MISSION ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 150/fac 649 ovpt subset

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Congrats.... I put that set together several years ago with the help of Scott Elkins. I think it was 2002 or 2003, but both of us put a set together.
Be well Brian


PS Hi Ted... too bad the number is 35 instead of 36 or it would really start your sheet discussion going...

PS 2 As you know this set is important when trying to find out "possible backs"...

[Abravefan11]

Peter - They put together a set of 34. They did not have a Nicholls.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by marcdelpercio

It would be the equivalent of a prominent biologist who claimed to have captured a Yeti, but then refused to show the rest of the scientific community any evidence.

LOL dead on but in this case it's more like….. “opps you just missed the Yeti I just sold it....oh well maybe next time but trust me he’s out there keep looking for him you're bound to find him...but currently I'm the only superstar who has…how dare you question me!”



John

[cfc1909]

I want to say that this has really bothered me as I considered Ted a very close friend and this is baseball cards but he has crossed the line. I told him I was willing to forget all this and forgive him just don't expect me to believe all the claims of completing sets and subsets, it insults my intelligence. His answer was not good and can not be repeated here. Obviously our friendship is not very important...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias ...

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks for explaining the Nicholls SC150 649 OP situation guys. And I do understand that this is not an issue of just this card, but boils down to putting out bad info that you know is false, for whatever reason ?

I am one of the people who took whatever TedZ said as gospel when I first joined Net54,,,and I will say that I'm sure that I have learned alot from TedZ. But what bothers me is having to go back and re-check what I took as gospel- some of this stuff is very complicated to follow (and learn ).

I really enjoyed the way Tim C. was doing the SC lists awhile back, because it was an interactive way to compile the factual data- and if an input didn't sound right, at that point a scan for confirmation could be requested. Compiling a list and saying "it's been seen" doesn't jive........especially when proof cannot be found thereafter......

I see two ways to try to clear things up here (maybe).........

TedZ- did you scan your AB460's? If you did, please post them.

TedZ- if you didn't ever own the Nicholls card in question, just say you didn't. People make mistakes, it's part of life and I believe people respect people who own up to their mistakes. My 1 cent of opinion.

As far as the data on the confirmed lists.......what do we do now?

Sincerely, Clayton

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I see two ways to try to clear things up here (maybe).........

TedZ- did you scan your AB460's? If you did, please post them.

TedZ- if you didn't ever own the Nicholls card in question, just say you didn't. People make mistakes, it's part of life and I believe people respect people who own up to their mistakes. My 1 cent of opinion.



Sincerely, Clayton

+1. I've certainly made my share of mistakes, and a lot of guys here have been great teachers and storehouses of knowledge. Nobody's perfect. I guess I just hate to see the cross and nails coming out.

Best wishes to all my compadres here, including Ted, with whom I've had several interesting discussions on this board.

Larry