Performance Enhancing Drugs - How Those Implicated Have Impacted Card Collecting

[stadiumechoes]

Although I agree that the value of the cards of those connected to PEDs have been greatly impacted (although the general knowledge of the mass production of these cards certainly hasn't helped), I am of the opinion that many years from now, the individual accomplishments will be looked at in a better light than they are today. I honestly feel that as time goes by, this era will be known as the steroid (or PED) era, and the feats will not be looked upon with such a "scarlet letter" as they do today.

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by stadiumechoes

I honestly feel that as time goes by, this era will be known as the steroid (or PED) era, and the feats will not be looked upon with such a "scarlet letter" as they do today.

Bill James thinks they will be looked at as pioneers in the future, due to society taking more drugs in general to prolong youth, etc. Find the article if you can, it's a thought provoking read. I hope he's wrong, but wouldn't bet against him.

[LanceRoten]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Bill James thinks they will be looked at as pioneers in the future, due to society taking more drugs in general to prolong youth, etc. Find the article if you can, it's a thought provoking read. I hope he's wrong, but wouldn't bet against him.

Yeah that James piece is floating around a few sites. I often get ripped, not on here that I know of yet, because i'm a Bonds fan. And have been since the Arizona State days. If you've got a favorite player or two, and legit like the player, it's hard to turn that off regardless of what you hear or read. I choose to look it at like Bill James or , there's another author i forget the name who had some ped thoughts also. I believe Bonds, McGwire, whoever, they're grown men. They didn't take ped's for my benefit, or any fans benefit. They didn't take them to hurt me as a fan, or any fans. They were looking for competitive advantage. It would be extremely naive of me to think that if a Hank Aaron or Willie Mays were in this particular era that they wouldn't have been interested in a little improvement. And to close on Bonds. If we take the years that most assume he was clean, well, he was arguably the second or third best player in the majors from his breakout 1990 - say, what 99? So lets say he dabbled a bit in the steroid game. He went from being on par or better with those (Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc) who were likely using, to being significantly better than anyone for a few years there. He was nearly as good as the users before possibly using, and a few levels above the other users with Ped's. As for the card prices, eh, I like being able to pick up virtually any Bonds graded card I want for considerably less than I would have 6-8 years ago. And the record book says, all time HR King

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by LanceRoten

I often get ripped, not on here that I know of yet, because i'm a Bonds fan.

I often get ripped too, because I'm a Guinness fan. Hate Bonds and all the other users, not because of their use really, but because they tended to be arrogant, self centered jerks. That's just personal preference. Few cards post 80's were going to have any long term value anyway so the bad pub the druggies got just sped up their card price decline. (Like a speed user who ages 30 years after 5 years of use). The real culprits in the steroid era were the owners. They knew it was happening, and let it, because they needed to build the fan base back up after the missed World Series and work stoppage.

[ls7plus]

I tend to think the "pioneer" proposition will prove to be correct, although I don't think anyone will feel that a direct comparison can be drawn to statistical performance pre-PED and PED. Personally, I used to love to watch Mark McGwire, and despite his inablility to acknowledge that steroids enhanced his HR prowess, there is no question that it did--that 370 foot out becomes a 410 foot homer, with the increased bat speed. However, I believe that McGwire also does have a point when he talks about the credit that should be given to the evolution of his swing. That swing went from rather long and loose to the sweetest, most compact, lightning quick stroke I ever saw. And when he hit them--wow! The scoreboard in Cleveland; high off the scoreboard to the opposite field in Shea! I was at Tiger Stadium for an interleague game in '99, when the Tigers played the Cards, and we got there early for batting practice. Big Mac hit four over the roof in left, including one in left center! Those that only made the upper deck in left, where we were sitting, we're still coming at us like cannon shots, even at the end of their flight, while balls hit by other players just came looping towards us in the same area. We decided we wouldn't want to even try to catch one of McGwire's balls bare-handed! Plus, PED or not, the guy generally carried himself with class. I've got a '92 game-used bat of McGwire's with extremely heavy use that I will probably never part with. I must admit that I am now conflicted about him: that performance in the late '90's amazed all of us who were naive, and now we know it wasn't at all real in the same sense that the accomplishments of players like Mantle, Mays, Aaron, the Babe and Maris were real.

I also liked to watch Bonds, even though by that time everyone knew his performance wasn't legit. It was just that I'd never seen anyone make major league pitching look like slow-pitch softball before. I thought he was such a jerk, but he gave one an idea of what it must have been like to face the Babe or Ted Williams in their primes.

Perhaps a more interesting question: the Mets clubhouse attendant wrote a book wherein he took credit for supplying hundreds of players with 'roids during that time period. What do we do with these guys as far as the Hall of Fame is concerned? Build a cheater's wing? And if we do that, how do we really know who to place where? Pudge Rodriguez is not usually classified as a PED cheater, yet while he was a Tiger, he lost about 26 pounds on a supposed "diet" that he couldn't even attempt to explain to the local news reporters! With those pounds, went his power forever.

Is it just hero to zero, or is there a return trip that's going to be there for these guys? They also DO have some cards that are scarce or even rare enough to have some significant value--both of their Topps Tiffany rookies had only a 5,000 print run, while Big Mac had a Topps refractor commemorating #70 that they only printed 15 of. PSA had graded 7 last time I checked (I haven't submitted mine). Bonds has a 2002 refractor commemorating his #73 in 2001, which I purchased because it is indeed part of baseball history, and I can thus hold that part of the history right in my hands. And A-Roid has a Sportfics Artist's Proof rookie with a print run of maybe 200 max. Food for thought. I have all these cards, and I'm not tossing 'em, regardless of value. For better or worse (on which I remain conflicted), they are still part of the game I treasure so much--I played for many, many years as well as I could, then I watched it, and then I collected it.

Good thread.

Larry

[insidethewrapper]

Talk about today's high production. Many of the cards today are produced in lower numbers than surviving T206's. Demand is the problem of many of today's cards not supply. Many are under the 5000 production with several 1 of 1's.

Could you imagine in the coin hobby, if coins were printed less than 100 or 1 of 1 the prices would be enormous. There are millions of State Quarters and people collect these.

[iwantitiwinit]

In some cases it is true that production of some specialty sets or cards are very limited, however often their appeal is also minimal. What appeal does a 1 of 1 card have when only a single person can own it, especially if it is simply a picture of an existing player. I can simply take a photo of that individual. I can no longer take a picture of Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, etc. These limited edition sets have not survived the test of time, and perhaps more importantly the test of sustained value, T206's have.

[drc]

"I've never seen a less innocent person in my life," Donald Trump on OJ Simpson.

Just made me chuckle when I read that.

[stadiumechoes]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Bill James thinks they will be looked at as pioneers in the future, due to society taking more drugs in general to prolong youth, etc. Find the article if you can, it's a thought provoking read. I hope he's wrong, but wouldn't bet against him.

I will definately look for the article.